I Can’t Remember If I Cried”: Badass Warriors, Grief, and the Realities of Rock Widowhood

Speaker A: This is Nothing happens for a reason. Hi, Lori.

Speaker B: Hi, Claire.

Speaker A: Thanks for being here today.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here, of course.

Speaker A: Why don’t you introduce yourself and let us know a little bit about you reaching out to me and having interest about coming on to the podcast today.

Speaker B: Sure. So, Lori Tucker Sullivan. I am a writer, an educator living in Detroit. I am born and raised in Detroit, spent a few years away, several years away, raising a family, but came back after my husband passed away and starting, you know, all through kind of my youth and teen years and into college, I was. Wanted to be a journalist and in particular, a music journalist. That didn’t quite pan out, and I became a wife and a mom and renovated an old house instead. And then after my husband passed away from head and neck cancer, I wanted to return to that writing as a way to deal with my grief and get through that difficult time. And so I did that, and the result was my book, which is I Can’t Remember if I Cried and Rock Widows on Life, Love and Legacy.

Speaker A: I just love the name of the book. I’ll say that first, you know, having that Don McLean reference.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And it. It really excited me when you reached out to me and told me the name of your book, too. And actually, my. One of my first tattoos is actually an American Pie quote. It’s not that one, but I do have an American Pie quote. It’s Can Music Save youe Mortal Soul? And so, yeah, it was. It’s just a very beautiful title to a book, and it really intrigued me. And there’s that connection, too, as well.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. I mean, it’s fitting. I don’t know that he’s ever come out and said that that line is about Maria Elena Holly, but I think that’s kind of the belief is the day the music died is connected to the day that. That Buddy Holly died. And I see Maria Elena Holly as the first rock widow and so wanted, you know, it was a way to kind of recognize her using that line also. But I think that’s a pretty safe understanding that that line is about Buddy and Maria Elena.

Speaker A: And so when. When did your husband die? Kevin.

Speaker B: Kevin. He was diagnosed with head and neck cancer in 2008 and passed away in 2010. So we had two pretty solid years of. Of cancer fighting. The first round of treatment went very well. We thought that they had caught it fairly early. And so he was healthy for about nine months and then started having headaches and. And it came back. And at that point was in his Sinus cavities, and I’m pressing on his brainstem, and then it moved from there to his spine and into his lungs. And so. Yeah, so it was a. It was a long, difficult period of time.

Speaker A: Yeah. I can imagine so much anticipatory grief during that period, too, of just watching his physical decline.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. At the. For the last three or four months, he was quadriplegic. And so just, you know, and this was someone who was a long distance runner who had run a marathon the, you know, the year before he got sick. And, and he really. And I do believe it prolonged his life. He became very strict about what he ate and, and he worked out as much as he could until, you know, the cancer progressed to a point where he couldn’t. He really wanted to be as healthy as possible throughout that whole time. And so it was. It was very difficult to see that decline in someone that was so active and so vital.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so young.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And also, I’m sure you having to watch his grief process as well through losing those abilities is probably incredibly hard.

Speaker B: Yes. And, you know, I talk about a little bit in the book, so my story kind of threads through the book, and I learned from each of the widows, I learned, you know, lessons about grief and forgiveness and moving on. And. And so one of the things that I did deal with for a few years after he passed away was the fact that he never really came to terms with where he was at and how bad it was. You know, I think he had some conversations with some people about if he didn’t make it through what he wanted to happen, but he. And I never had that conversation. And it was, you know, I felt very much that I had to really believe that he was going to make it and show him that. That I supported his belief that he was going to make it. And that’s a very difficult position to be put in. And Aaron, I don’t. I don’t want to say that he did that, but, you know, he responded in the way he knew how. And I think now after years of reflection and therapy, I can say that I think he, you know, I’m sure there was some fear in there, but I think his greatest driver was that he felt that he’d be letting his family down, that he’d be letting me down, letting his children down if he gave in. And. And so he just couldn’t. He had to kind of keep fighting. And. And it’s, I think, a very secure person who just wants to be at peace and let things happen. When, you know, things are terminal and, you know, I would not have ever been or ever felt let down by him. I knew how much he wanted to stay with us, but I think that was. That was a driver for him in much of his life, you know, wanting to be successful, wanting to. He was just. He was a competitive person, you know, hence the running and races and things like that. And so I think it was just very hard for him to come to terms with. With not making it, which he equated with failure. And that should not be the case, really.

Speaker A: Should not. No, not at all. And. And yeah, going back to what you’re saying of how incredibly hard that. I’m sure that was on you, because it’s hard to not be able to have some of those conversations, especially as things are progressing and like, you’re saying you want to honor kind of his wishes of how he was choosing to cope and also. Yeah, it’s. It’s like the giant, biggest elephant in the whole entire room of kind of pretending it sounds like. And. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think some of that goes back to our whole. The way we frame cancer and a terminal diagnosis, whether it’s cancer or any other disease, and this idea of fighting it and being in the fight, being in the battle. I wish we would move away from terms like that because, you know, and then people who do survive and live, they conquered and they beat it, and, you know, that’s not good to hear for those of us who. Who did not. And yeah, it’s. It’s just I. I would really love a different vernacular around that. Any terminal illness, really.

Speaker A: Yes, I very much agree. Do you have ideas of what you’d rather it be replaced with?

Speaker B: Well, he came to try to see it as a journey, that he was on a journey and it was going to have the end that it had, and that he really needed to try to change the thinking around that to one of. Of being on this. This journey and this. Having this experience. But I think that was. That was really hard for him to do. He’d mentioned that once in a while. You know, he had a blog that he posted to, and people would respond, you know, we’re so proud of you. You’re so strong. You’re keeping up the fight. And so it’s. It’s hard, you know, when everybody talks that way, it’s hard to move away from it. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, yes, and I agree. I feel very strongly as you’re talking about, Of. Of my opinions of, like, fighting and conquering and, you Know all of those things. And I sometimes have feelings of guilt when, like, I know someone in my life who recently beat cancer. Right.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker A: And of course, I’m like, so happy that they’re okay.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And I’m like, yeah. What does that mean for whether it’s Kevin or my mom or the millions other people that.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Fight. And. And so the alternative is they lose. Like, I don’t know, like they were too weak, they weren’t strong enough. You know, there’s so many.

Speaker B: They weren’t. They were. Yeah. Yeah. There’s just no way, almost no way to frame it that is fair to the person who went through it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think it goes beyond that as well. Certainly, you know, in my book, there are people who had drug problems, and that’s the same kind of thing, you know, does someone who succumbs to those. How do we frame that? I mean, I’ve really come to believe in talking with the women that I’ve interviewed, that that is also not a weakness, that there are many reasons for. For those habits. That’s not a good word either. But, you know, to. To turn to substances, you know, at some times, and. And to again, beat that addiction or not, it just. Yeah. I wish the framework would be different around a lot of. Of ways that we think about illness and in the ways that people respond or don’t respond to it.

Speaker A: Just another product of living in a very black and white society.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: People want things to be cut and dry. It’s one or the other. And yeah, maybe it feels great if you’re on one side of that coin, but if you’re on the other side, what does that mean for us?

Speaker B: We long for those stories and we want the stories that end well. And.

Speaker A: Yeah, Glenn, it’s just not really how life works. No. At least not in my opinion. I. You know, I know you’re. You already mentioned the being strong part of this, and I didn’t know. You know, it’s not talked about in your book that Kevin had a blog and that’s how people would respond to him. But it is a theme that carried through in a lot of the different chapters of your book.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And, you know, I. I speak about this often on other episodes and on social media and things like that, but the. What that means to be told that we’re strong. And one, One quote.

Speaker B: Yes. I have a love hate relationship with that idea of both, you know, during illness and then for. For those who are left behind and how they cope with grief. It’s. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Word. You know, a loaded phrase.

Speaker A: It. It is. Right. And you write very reluctant to agree with those referring to me as strong. In the month after Kevin died, I did what I had to do. And I think that that is such a common way for a lot of us who are on the receiving end of that. Of what. What choice did I have? I. I did what I had to do.

Speaker B: Right foot in front of the other, and. And then it’s a month that has gone by or six months or a year, and. Yeah. And you don’t. I don’t think you return to a point of equilibrium for a long time. And. And maybe outwardly it appears that you are, but. But it’s. Yeah, it’s. Some days are good, some days are really awful, but you do what you have to do.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think something that’s really interesting. And again, this is a theme I talk about often with this idea of being strong. But. Right. Like, for me, the times that people say that to me are when I’m, like, showing up and working and functioning, and people are like, wow, like, you’ve had so much loss in your life, but look at you. You’re doing great. You’re so strong. Versus. And I think something that was really highlighted in your book and some of the chapters is when some of the women that you interviewed were not able to be showing up in the, quote, strong way. So whether they moved into their own abuse of substances, they just, like, fell apart. I don’t think those women were being told they’re strong.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And that was. That was definitely a very, very large theme amongst it, too. And another quote that I have here from it was the Peggy Sue Honeyman Scott chapter. I think that’s chapter two. It said, I couldn’t recognize myself. I felt like I wasn’t even there. And another one from Gloria Jones was no one knew how to respond to her grief. She felt on the verge of insanity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think that’s how so many of us feel in grief. But again, when it’s paired with this, like, oh, you’re doing okay. You’re strong. Those other parts of us, the feeling like we’re not really there, dissociating, feeling insane, whatever it is, like, that gets buried, and then maybe we end up having to deal with it alone.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so I thought those. That was just a thread.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And for most of us, we manage that quietly and on our own. And these women are quite often in the public eye, and everyone’s watching how they respond and judging how they respond and are they weak, or is that seen as the right emotional response? Are they strong? Are they moving on too soon? Like, all that judgment is there. And so that. That was something that I learned early on that really sets these women apart from the way I had to grieve. I grieved privately with the friends and family that, you know, that I wanted around me and. And very little judgment that wasn’t positive. You know, people thinking that it was positive to tell me how strong I was being. But, yeah, and I was also 46, and many of these women were in their early 20s. You know, it just their youth, the fact that they were so young, I think really, we don’t understand that as well, but they went through when they were so young. And one of the quotes that came to mind when I was. As we’re talking about this, one of my later interviews was with Ingrid Croce, widow of Jim Croce. And she is just a powerhouse, and she has been all her life, but especially since Jim’s loss. And, you know, she was 16 when they met. And so that was, you know, when you think about how you feel about someone when you’re 16, you know, that was the feeling that she carried into her marriage with Jim. And they struggled quite a bit financially, that, you know, he really wanted to do great music, and they knew that he was talented and they did whatever they could. And finally he hits it big, really big. Three albums in the top 10. And just this, you know, significant kind of fame that came to him. But for a very short time, and in doing the interview, I went to Ingrid’s home and she. She has remarried. Her husband, Jimmy Rock, very supportive, wonderful person. And he was there as part of the interview. And she now has aphasia, and so she cannot speak. And she would. She could say yes and no. She would nod her head. We went over some writing that she had done years ago, some journals. There were, you know, we kind of had to piece together this interview in a very different way. And so throughout the day, she had really not spoken much at all. And Jimmy asked me, he said, do you have the information that you need? And is there anything else? What is it really that you want to know from Ingrid? And I said, well, the grief is a big part of what I’m writing about. I want to know how she dealt with that grief, especially in those first weeks and months. And this is a woman who had not spoken all day, just turned to me and said, I had a child, and that child needed breakfast, lunch and dinner. And that child needed his mother, and I had to be there for him. And it was touching. It was shocking. I understood. I had young children also. I knew exactly what she was feeling. And that is the story. We. We have life, and life has to go on. And so you do just put one foot in front of the other, and whether you want to call that strength or just doing what you got to do, and that’s. That’s what it is. And she encapsulated that so well in those couple sentences. And. Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, how important was it for her to say that? It must have been so important.

Speaker B: So important that she wanted people to know. Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I just got chills having you revisit. I actually, I highlighted that part too, because in some ways, I mean, it’s different. I’m. I’m not a mother. And those weren’t the motivating things for me. It’s why a good friend of mine recommended, before my mom died, like, you should get a dog. And my first reaction when that was suggested was like, absolutely not. Like, I’m not even going to be able to take care of myself. My mom dies, let alone an animal. And they were like, that’s the point.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And. And like, they were so right. Like, it was the best thing I ever did. But, yeah, it was something that I had to get out of bed for. It was something I had to feed, it was something I had to walk. It got me at least moving my feet a little bit.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so reflecting on that part of Ingrid’s story, like, having. Having some sort of, like, purpose.

Speaker B: Yes. Something outside yourself to continue. And I think when I look at, like, foundations that people start, and, you know, I see that that is part of preserving legacy and memory, but also just having some kind of purpose in your life. And many of these women have gone on to do things like that because they do want that legacy to be there and they do need that external focus after going through this. Yeah.

Speaker A: And you know that. I’m glad you brought that up because. And I know you refer to it in. In the quote. Right. The. The keepers of the flame.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And that’s another thread that goes amongst a lot of the different stories. And I do think it’s really interesting because. Right. So much of your interviews with these women and also I think, questioning for yourself amongst this. Of legacy. Purpose within that legacy. But I really appreciated, too, that you had some wondering or curiosity of, like, is that your responsibility to do that and at what cost to. To the people that are carrying that and and something that I’m curious about for you as both when you were sitting down with these women and writing the book and revisiting the book is I had waves of just like deep sadness reading the book. And not just like it was a book about widows and grief and all of that, but a lot of the sadness of these women I know you already named, so many were very young, like sometimes teenagers, twenties when they went through this. But the, the word that I’m thinking of, and it’s also because it’s something I’ve been working on deeply for myself, is just like codependency. And the deep codependency of these women who really endured so much, so many of them, not just like living with somebody who struggled with substance abuse, but like abuse, physical abuse. And, and I think the sadness really came over me in some of the chapters where the women were like, I wouldn’t have done it any other way, or this is what I needed to be doing. And I’m just curious what was that like for you to sit with these women with these perspectives that actually have continued to carry on in their life?

Speaker B: The book isn’t a happy read. It is though, I think, very interesting to hear their stories and to hear about these men from their perspective. And one of the themes that I was surprised at that does run through the book is how much these women did sacrifice. Several of them had their own careers and, and gave them up. And they had to give them up sometimes because the men, because there was codependence, because the men couldn’t function without these women being with them and kind of managing just their day to day lives and keeping them sober or keeping them on tour, all of those things. And so it was a real kind of awakening for me. You know, I don’t. That was not the case with Peggy Sue Honeyman. Scott. You know, one of my early conversations that kind of took a turn was when I was with her and she talked about, you know, meeting James backstage and you know, he says the first time they meet that he’s going to marry her and he calls her from all of these stops and then sends her tickets and she meets him in a city and travels for two and a half years, just travels around the world with him on tour, giving up her own modeling career, also putting that on hold so that she could be with him and talked about, you know, I told her how kind of envious 17 year old me would be of her experience. And she, she came back and said, you know, you had 26 years and I had two and a half. Like, don’t talk to me about envy. And through all of this, you know, I can say I really wanted to be a music journalist. Part of the reason was because I wanted to hang out with all of these rock stars and, you know, they were. I was fascinated by them and had crushes on them and had posters on my wall and. And they really are just human and. And they’re humans that deal with youth, with having talent, that talent blows up. They suddenly have a lot of money. They have to get up every day and perform in front of all these people. They have people just telling them how. How fabulous they are. It’s a lot for a 27, 28 year old person to handle. Well, and, and so, you know, I do see, you know, there was so much support. I mean, when you look at the situations that they were in, you see how they needed the stability of this partner to, to bring them some balance and, and to bring them kind of back to reality and, and so, you know, yeah, they were these the kind of rock star dreams that I had as a teenager. I’m kind of glad those didn’t pan out. I had my rock star, he just didn’t. He did actually travel the world for his job, but he wasn’t out there performing on stage or things like that. But he loved his family. He worked hard for his family. And that counts for something.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: A whole other thing that these women, all of them dealt with in one form or another to some degree.

Speaker A: Yeah. That theme was another one that I wrote down that you’re speaking to, which does, you know, come back to codependency. But it is the theme of so many said, like, I am not going to become your manager. I have my own career. And then it was like. And a week later I was doing it.

Speaker B: And Jamie Weiland.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, she was. She’s a wonderful photographer and artist.

Speaker A: Okay. Yes. The way on story.

Speaker B: Yeah. For Scott. And Scott needed 24. Seven tending and.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, it’s.

Speaker A: Yeah, it’s a lot.

Speaker B: It really is.

Speaker A: I was exhausted for some of these women reading about it.

Speaker B: Yeah, very much.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It’s been interesting. Recently, Warren Zevon was inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame and very, very much deserving of that accolade. And I saw photos and his widow Crystal was there with her daughter and then his son Jordan from his first marriage. And so the family was there to be able to see that. And Kevin and I both really loved Warren’s music. You maybe haven’t heard Warren’s music, but you have. You just don’t realize a lot of other people recorded his music. He was known for Werewolves of London. I think he. He would like to have been known for some of his more. More literary music, if that’s a term. But he was a wonderful writer and his love songs are just beautiful. They will just break your heart to listen to them. And. And we both loved him. And I think I was the first person that Kevin dated that even knew who Warren was. And we both had. Had records. And so I knew that early on I wanted to talk with Crystal. That was kind of a. I prioritized some of the, you know, making my list early on with people that I knew that we both really loved and we wanted. I wanted to hear those stories. And that was one. And yes, you know, I had to hear that he was physically abusive to her and she did leave the marriage. They were divorced at the time of his death. But yes, as soon as he got his diagnosis, and I believe he got a stage four diagnosis right from the start. And so he knew that he had limited time and, and he called her and said, you know, you’re the wife, you gotta come take care of me. After, you know, I think 11 or 12 years apart. And, and. And they had, you know, she said he would call her sometimes when he was lost and needed directions. And he’s in la, in Vermont. And so there was always this connection between the two of them. They always just returned to each other despite the divorce and, and even the physical distance. So. And she chose not to return and care for him. She visited him a couple times and. But she had learned to set those boundaries and she stuck with it and had to deal with that. But then she did agree to write his biography. And. And it’s one of the lines in the book that I. That I like to read because it’s so powerful. It’s not pretty, but, you know, when she says that reading his journals, I mean, it was a. It was a difficult thing for her to do because all of his transgressions were there and wrote about all of these things he did that she would really prefer not to know. But in the end, she said she. She realizes it was his one last request for forgiveness and for absolution. And so she chose to forgive him. And just. She said, now I just love him and miss him. And that’s a lot. That’s, you know, that’s a big lesson. And I think if she can forgive all that, then, you know, I can forgive the little Habits that made me frustrated, you know, and. Yeah. And all of those things, but. And in that chapter, I do talk about where does that go if you still have some anger or resentment and this person is no longer here to work it out, that can really settle into your life and do some real damage. And I think she has coped very well with that. But once it’s over because one of the partners dies, that’s a finality that you really have to cope with if things haven’t been perfect all the time and most relationships have not been perfect all the time. So. Yeah, that was a. I just. I loved speaking with her, and she’s done some really cool things in the years since Warren’s passing. Yeah. But it’s been interesting to see him kind of in the news around that induction.

Speaker A: I did. I loved her story. It felt. It felt empowering in a different way than some of the other chapters. I also really appreciated it in reading through some of the other women of. I was grateful when there was moments of, like, how angry they were.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Because. Right. Is anger is something especially for women that are supposed to kind of bury. And. Yeah. We don’t want to be angry forever, and we want to move forward from it and, like, not just, like, buried and move on to having this person be seen as, like, a God. Right. And one of the women you talked to said something, I think, to, like, family of, like, let’s not immortalize this person. Like, this person was a human. And I think that’s so important, too, because it happens. And I hear a lot about that in this work of people getting kind of frustrated that when someone dies, it’s all of a sudden like, this person was just like an angel.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: No. Like, they were a human being and they made mistakes.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It’s. It’s hard. I think they. They kind of try to walk that line quite often of knowing the real person, knowing what this person was like, knowing that fans think very differently or don’t know the whole story. And. And. And so they have to. I think they feel very compelled, on the one hand, to keep the person’s legacy there, keep their creative legacy out there so that people know what they made and what they created in their lifetimes. You know, also trying to be at peace with who the real person was that they knew. And quite often, those are two different people. The public Persona and the private are. Are very different. Or the public Persona is maybe a little bit the same as the private one, and that becomes part of their war. Part of what makes Them popular, I think of Dee Dee Ramone, and that was kind of part of his whole story, was that he was just wild and you can’t function day to day like that. And so, so Vera was the person that really cared for him. And. And, you know, that was another one where she was told early on, nope, no women on the tour. But, you know, even if you’re his wife, you gotta get out. And. And three weeks later, the band is calling her and saying, please come take him.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Come take care of him. And so, yeah, so when that becomes kind of part of the Persona, then it. It’s even harder to work around it, to try to solve it. And, and, you know, I don’t know if there are any that really felt responsible for these behaviors. I think they all knew that these were men who, who maybe there were some mitigating factors or reasons they abused drugs or. Or whatever else, you know, the difficulties were. But I, I think that they understood that these were humans who are fallible and, and put into a really kind of stressful situation. They didn’t do so well. I don’t think there are any women that I interviewed who would argue that point with me. I think they all are very accepting of, of these very human people that they loved very much.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that. That comes across for sure of just like the deep love. No matter how the woman responded or did they stay right, make boundaries and, you know, whatever. It was like, the love was very obvious in all of those stories. And, and something else that surprised me. And I mean, there was the theme of, like, narratives being rewritten, right. When somebody’s in the public eye and how different women cope for that differently. Some people, right, like, wrote the book and did the interviews and one of the later chapters, they’re like, I will never do that. Because it’s kind of like this is these. That person that I knew is for me to keep. Like, I don’t need to argue with people. And however, with. Within that, there were a couple that, like, the world didn’t even know they existed. And that’s kind of an interesting point too, right, because there’s the people who are clearly famous and then they’re wrapped in. And they can never have any sort of peace because the world is obsessed with them and their love story or how they, you know, were part of it or the other side of it is there are some women that people are like, they didn’t even know they were married or didn’t know they had a partner.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And then how do you deal with that, because it feels like in some ways, the world is like, erasing you from history. And that’s another. Like, that’s a secondary loss for so many of these women, too.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it is so hard to control the narrative because there are people that are paid a lot of money to control that narrative and to set it up so that it is, you know, it becomes a big popular story, and they tend to get lost in that. You know, I think Gloria Jones was very much a victim of that. And the story around Mark’s passing and that she was driving the car when they had their accident. And, you know, I think that still kind of haunts her. And 40, 50 years later, and. And it is hard for her. She has. She has worked to get Mark and T. Rex into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, which happened about five years ago, I think, and. And she’s helped produce documentaries about him. Her life is still about getting his story out there. And this is someone who. Who was nominated for a Grammy for a song she wrote, and no one knows that. And it was a backup singer on quite a few records that. That I listened to, and. And we don’t realize that either. And so it was sad or frustrating to see how often the women are kind of moved to the back. And because a happy home life is not. Doesn’t go along with, especially a teen idol image, which Mark had at that time, it. It just, you know, isn’t what people want to see. And, you know, when she talks about how often they were kind of trampled by fans and that women would come at him with scissors to cut a lock of his hair and. And, you know, things that. That. That I never experienced.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: They’re just, you know, part of fan culture. And fan culture certainly comes up quite a bit in all of these stories as well. The one story where it really was the case where people didn’t know that they were married was Catherine Maher and Andy Gill from Gang of Four. And Catherine and Andy lived in. In London. And. And she talks about how she is a writer. She now has a novel out, but she wrote about Prince Charles before he became King Charles, did a lot of political writing. She tracked down drug lords and wrote about them like she had her own fabulous career, and she maintained that. And there were people who saw her name in Andy’s obituary and said what that really. And it was important to them that the two of them maintained that career. And that says a lot about Andy and about Catherine.

Speaker A: Sure does.

Speaker B: And, you know, now she, you know, she talks Very, very touchingly about wanting to preserve his legacy and that, you know, the managers, the, all of these industry people will kind of come at her and say, you know, you just sit over there in the corner and we’ll take care of all of this. And she said, you know, people think that we’re kind of, you know, we had our needs cut out from under us and that we’re just going to fall down and when in fact, my strength now is greater because I will do this for Andy. I will protect his legacy. I will make sure that is remembered properly, that the band goes on and, and that she has a say in that because grief makes her stronger. And I think that’s something we don’t talk about very much either, you know, and, and it’s something that, that I’ve kind of dealt with in writing this book. I, I loved. We, as a young couple, we purchased an abandoned farmhouse and renovated it. And that was kind of how we were known in our little suburban areas. The couple who saved the farmhouse and, and had kids and we, you know, had this life. And after Kevin passed away, I sold the house and I moved to downtown Detroit. I live now in an old converted factory and I went into teaching, which I love, and writing. And I wrote this book and I spoke with a widow’s group in Toronto back in the early spring, I believe it was, and talked about how as we try to look at grief maybe a little bit differently, it can be a time of great kind of metamorphosis. And I am a very different person than the person I was before Kevin got sick and before he died. And I think we have to embrace that too, along with kind of changing the way we look at things like terminal illness and how we refer to them. I think all of these women would like it to be known that they were not shrinking widows who moved even further into the background. That they use this as a way to really push forward. Whether it was Judy Van Sant, who was 28, I believe, had a two year old daughter and finds out after dinner one night that a plane has crashed and Ronnie’s gone. And she and I met in Mississippi and we kind of walked that field and there’s a huge monument there that has been erected by fans and she has had to do that dance for years with their very dedicated fan base, which is larger now than it was before the crash. And so she has maneuvered with that. But there was an agreement that the band would dissolve after Ronnie died. And then they were given the opportunity to start touring about 10 years after that, and the band members took it and said, sorry, you’re out. You have nothing to do with this. And, you know, she said, you messed with the wrong person. And I think that there is a strength that can come from grief and it’s motivated by different things. And, you know, she saw this as, you know, Ronnie founded that band, he got them where they were at, and, and he was not going to be forgotten. She wasn’t going to allow that to happen. And. And she has become. Was. Is, you know, a very savvy businesswoman as a result.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And so, so I think, you know, that’s another thing that we can maybe change the way we look at and that is how do we change when we go through a very difficult loss and sometimes we come out of it better, stronger, more alive, more dedicated to something that we want to do in our lives and that, that really should be celebrated and. Yeah, yeah. Because it’s not easy.

Speaker A: No, no. And it makes me think about the pre and post selves when we experience really significant or traumatic things and traumatic losses. And I know you, you write about that too. And the quote that I have here is that I am almost unrecognizable to my pre widow self. In some ways. It feels like a mature betrayal. And, and that is something that I think again, is so common in loss of, like, my life is divided in. I don’t, you know, usually like black and white terms, but it feels very black and white for me of like the moment that this happened versus what followed and who I used to be. And of course, there’s parts of me that are still the same, but it’s. It doesn’t feel like such a stark dividing moment in my life.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think that that’s. That is something that I know a lot of people can relate to.

Speaker B: Right, right. Yeah. And I think we all cope with and respond to the trauma, to the loss in different ways. And, and I think all of them are right. You know, we. We have to respond in the way that we respond. And to, to say that I’m a different person is not to say that I was an unhappy person before. I was just leading a very different life. And this loss kind of pushed me into something that was very different from the way I was before. And so, and not everyone will respond in that way, but I think we have to see that kind of spectrum of response and, and kind of honor all of it.

Speaker A: And I, I think with that, as I said at the beginning, like this book, Lori, it was of course These. These interviews with different widows and. And different partners. And as you said, like, you intertwined part of your story throughout a lot of the different chapters, and it really did feel like you were, like, soul searching during it, which, again, significant loss will make us do that. But it did that. You had a lot of. You had a lot of questions in there, and you had a lot of questions around whether the keepers of the flame and legacy or do you regret decisions that you made in your. Your younger days, and you. Right. Choosing to give up the career that you were going after to live this other life. And. And so with that, there was. There was this really specific quote, I want to make sure I get it right, that you said it was when you were meeting with Gloria and you said, will there be a time or day when the colors suddenly seem brighter or the world seems happier? Will it be 14 years later as it was for Gloria? And so I’m curious, like, sitting here just today, what. What has that journey been like for you? And what do you think about that question you posed for yourself in your book?

Speaker B: That’s. That’s a good question. I think, you know, I can certainly look back on the book and see it as it was something that I think I dealt with the whole time is understanding that I wouldn’t have written this book were it not for Kevin not being here. And, you know, we can do a whole other session on guilt and how you deal with survivor’s guilt and all of those things. And I think once I had a good understanding that I’m still here, and he would want me to be happy and he would want me to succeed in a way that. That I find fulfilling, then that’s what I went for. And. And, you know, I think that’s as I keep moving along. And I’ve met more widows since the book came out and would love for there to be another volume, but, you know, I. I think for me, it has been now 14 years, 15 years, and back in September. And on the one hand, you think it is just all of these days stacked on top of each other. Where I made it, I got up and I got the kids to school, or I packed up everything and moved, you know, small little things and big major things, and that’s what you have to do. And I still think, you know, this past October 14th would have been Kevin’s 65th birthday. And I remember him on his birthday every year. But that year or this year, having that day come up, I thought, you know, he would be retiring now, and we’d Be thinking about maybe having another house somewhere. Maybe we’d winter somewhere else, or maybe we’d just make plans to travel and he’d be looking forward to, you know, maybe a marriage coming up. Our kids are, you know, at that point and maybe grandchildren and all of these things. And. And so I think every year that he’s not here and he’s missing out, but a year like this, you know, a number like that really made it hit home. And there will always be that unfairness. And I posted about that on social media and I said, I move along. I’m proud of myself for moving in the ways that I haven’t accomplishing these things that I wanted to do. But every once in a while, everybody needs to back up and just let me sit in the unfairness. And I think that’s true for everyone. You need sometimes when you just say it’s really unfair and it’s not fair that he’s not here. There’s never going to be a time where I don’t feel a little cheated and the unfairness and the what if? That’s all part of it. And sometimes it recedes to the background and I go out and have a great time and travel the world meeting these women that really, I say in the book, it was life saving and life changing, knowing them and hearing their stories and. And seeing what they’ve. What they’ve accomplished, too. So, you know, and other times I just like Crystal. I just really love him and miss him.

Speaker A: And both are true.

Speaker B: And both are true. And you hold both in the same hand.

Speaker A: Yeah, I did have that thought, reading through the book of not just you were going through your own again, journey within this. But, yeah. Thinking about how there was probably a lot of healing parts of this, of getting outside of yourself. Yeah. Physically traveling to these places and part of this community that I’m creating in this podcast is to not feel so alone. And, you know, you wrote about some of that, too, of just like sitting with other widows and. Or some of those widows have found other widows who can hold space and can relate in different ways. And how the messaging of, like, we all need community and how you were able to give that to yourself, a gift you were able to give yourself as you get reconnected with the righter part of you in. In the midst of your grief and loss of Kevin. Yeah. And. Yeah. How you just said it like life giving or life saving, that this opportunity was for you.

Speaker B: Just appreciate all of these women so much for sharing their stories and opening up and. And they didn’t have to. And I will say the ones who said no, there were four or five who said no, would always say it was because they cannot come back to that trauma. And, you know, one of. One of the best kind of correspondences I had was with a widow. I won’t name her because she opted not to be in the book. But she said, you know, I was 17 when I met him, 18 when we married, 19 when we had our daughter, 20 when he kicked me out, and 21 when I buried him. And I will not revisit that trauma. And so I honor that, too, and that decision and thank her for explaining that to me and to all of us. But it’s. Yeah, really for those who shared, who were able to and who wanted to share those stories. I’m just so deeply appreciative of them.

Speaker A: And it’s a really beautiful gift that you’ve given to the world. And again, like, you being able to put in writing these women, their. Their experience. Right. Because so much of their legacy is about preserving their partners or husbands.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so this is an opportunity for. For them to have some of that, too, through your writing. And again, for you, too. Like, you were able to put so much of yourself and your experience in this book as well, that now is just out there for the world. And it’s. It’s part of not just Kevin’s legacy, but like yours.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Because they don’t both have to always be one of the same. Right?

Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, I want to end with my. One of my favorite quotes.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: In the book. And you actually kind of visited it at one point. And again, it was in the chapter where really, you’re focusing on the idea of being told you’re strong and what choice did I have? And the end of that chapter was actually.

Speaker B: Let me just.

Speaker A: Let me read it from an actual book here.

Speaker B: So which chapter?

Speaker A: So, Judy van Zant, page 143, chapter nine. And I’ll preface by saying I think I really loved this quote because no surprise anybody how the. You’re so strong makes me feel. But I thought your reframe of this at the end of this chapter was. Was very beautiful. And like, you’ve kind of touched on it throughout this, but it says, But I get the feeling she will never slow down too much, never stop working for what she believes in, and never take no for an answer if she feels it isn’t right. Whether she’s been that way all her life or whether she developed that quiet fortitude in the wake of Leonard Skynyrd plane crashing into the Mississippi swamps and Rani’s death. It’s hard to say. But as I leave her, I better understand that continuing in the face of grief does take strength and courage, and it can reshape your very essence into a badass warrior if you let it. I love that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because it feels so different. Right. It’s not just somebody telling me I’m strong for showing up like you’re saying. It’s almost like you, Laurier, reclaiming the strength within you, like you said earlier. Like, grief does take strength. Like, I agree with that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I just love the empowering last part there of the reshape your very essence into a badass warrior if you let it. Because I do. I think that people have walked this. You, me, all the other people in the world. Like, we are badass warriors.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I just think it’s. It was such a beautiful. Every day, right? Yes, exactly. And I think it is. The strength isn’t the showing up to work and just, like, pretending we’re fine. Like.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: The strength is maybe it’s just like, I got out of bed today and, like, that too. Like, that takes a lot of strength. And I want to continue reclaiming the idea that, yeah, we are strong, but not strong for the ways that our society is painting us to be strong.

Speaker B: Right, Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: And so I just. I really love that. And I. I wanted to end our episode with. With visiting that.

Speaker B: Yeah, that.

Speaker A: That paragraph with you. Thank you so much. I mean, thank you, Claire. You reaching out and, like I said, gave me an excuse to read a new book. And I highly recommend it to. To anyone. And it was interesting. I learned a lot about just, like, rock legends in general, too. And there are some parts that I was like, wow, I never knew that. And so it was interesting. And.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, people always say they read it and then they’re googling on the other. You know, who this person was and they co. Listened to music clips. Oh, yes. I remember that song. And yeah, so it’s a. You get a lot of music history along with it, too.

Speaker A: There is. And I. That reminds me, I. I do want to revisit and Google I. The. I can’t remember which woman now, but the one where the body was, like, stolen. I was like, holy shit. Like, what a wild experience.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I was like, I need to look more into this.

Speaker B: Yeah. Gretchen Parsons Carpenter. She is another badass warrior. She had to be.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, while he was alive. And then after. After Graham died. Yeah. It’s it’s quite. That’s quite the story.

Speaker A: What a metaphor, too. Like, she, this person, she lost, like, metaphorically their presence. Right. They died and then like, their actual body was just also, like, taken. Like.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It was crazy because of rock and.

Speaker B: Roll because, you know, it had to all be rock and roll. And yeah, wild.

Speaker A: I. Yeah, I do need to go back and read more about that. But anyway, thanks, Claire. Well, I appreciate what you do.

Speaker B: And these conversations, they really are necessary and important, especially as we talk about trying to kind of reframe ideas around how we grieve and how we respond. So thank you for coming out and.

Speaker A: Talking about it and your legacy being this book and this podcast being part of mine. Right. And yeah, both would not exist without the loss we experience.

Speaker B: Right. Right.

Speaker A: And us, us making the decision to put something out into the world that hopefully again allows people to feel less alone in their experience.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, yeah, I just appreciate you so much. And again, thanks for being here today.

Speaker B: It’s mutual.

Speaker A: Thank you. So that’s all for this episode of Nothing Happens for a Reason. If you found value in today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a review. It truly helps our community grow. You can also follow the official Nothing Happens for a Reason Instagram account and sign up for our newsletter to be the first to hear about new episodes, exciting additions to the podcast, and special giveaways. And finally, if you know someone who might find solace or understanding here, especially as they navigate grief, please share this podcast with them. I deeply appreciate your support. We’ll be back with a new episode next Thursday.