Breaking the Silence: Fathers, Grief, and Healing After Child Loss

Speaker A: This is Nothing happens for a reason.

Speaker A: Hi, Jeff.

Jeff Loving: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I feel honored to be here.

Speaker A: Amazing. I feel honored to have you.

Jeff Loving: We’re off to a great start.

Speaker A: We’re off to a really, really good start. Well, why don’t you tell our listeners who you are?

Jeff Loving: Yeah, absolutely. My name is Jeff Loving. I actually am author. I’ve written. I’ve written two books. The first one, not really relevant to what we’re talking about today, is a historical fiction. You can look it up if you want to. But the more relevant one I actually more recently published called holding onto the Light. It’s available on Amazon. It’s basically about a father’s journey through loss and healing after losing a child. So to kind of give a little backstory on us, I was born and raised in Iowa. My wife and I met in Nebraska, and we were a Covid wedding. So we got married during 2020, lived out there for about a year, and then we actually, unfortunately went through our first loss while we were out in Nebraska, and then now we reside in North Carolina. And while we’ve been out here, we had a second loss. And more recently, we actually had a little girl back in May. And so we were also NICU parents. So we’re lost parents times two, and we’re also NICU parents. And so I honestly was the main reason why I wanted to write the most recent book that I did was because when I was going through our journey, I just didn’t have any resources for myself as a father of loss. And I really wanted to.

Jeff Loving: Create a resource for other families of loss, specifically for the dads that. That they could look to. Of saying, that person gets it. That’s what I’m going through. It might not be my exact story, but they understand the depth of what I’m feeling as a man, as being a man in this season of. Of loss.

Speaker A: Do you want to share a little bit about the circumstances of those?

Jeff Loving: Yeah, absolutely. So to kind of give you a focused journey through our story, basically, we got from a very young age, like both my wife and I, before we met each other, we were both like, we want to be parents one day. Like, that was. That was like, always on our heart. That was always our desire. So when we got married, that was one of our first things that we were like, okay, we got married. Check. Next thing, have kids. Or actually, next thing, get a dog, Check. Next thing, have kids. So that’s kind of what we were in the season for, was like, we’re a new couple. And so we’re like, let’s. Let’s try for kids. And so after about a year of being married, we got. We got pregnant easily, like, very quickly, and everything was going very well. And my wife will be the first person to tell you that I am, like, the most optimistic, cannot keep a secret to save my life type of person. And so when she told me, like, we were pregnant, she was like, you cannot, under any circumstances tell anybody about this until it’s like the proper time versus me. I’m just like, I’m ready to tell, like, the stranger I meet at the coffee shop or something. You know, like, walking down the street, I’m like, ready. So she made. I made a deal with her that I would wait till 14 weeks. And we made a pregnancy announcement. And I was, like, overjoyed. That was in October of 2021, and we were moving forward. Everything was going great. About three days before Thanksgiving, I believe it was that year, she came to me. She’s like, I just feel off. Like today I just woke up, I just feel off. And. And she’s like, I had some light bleeding. I don’t think it’s anything serious, but I just wanted you to be aware. So she called out of work that day, called her OB gyn. We were literally the last people to be seen that day, just because it was such short notice, which is totally understandable. We go into the appointment, and we were 19 weeks at that point. And she’s getting her ultrasound done, and the tech is like, everything looks great. Like everything’s fine. And.

Jeff Loving: I was able to see the monitor, but my wife was not, like, in the best position to see it. And I just remember seeing that tech go from happy, go lucky, everything looks great to her face went like, pale as a sheet. And she was like, I will be right back. And so she leaves, comes back with the doctor. The doctor just was very forward. She was just like, you are already dilating. I believe if I remember correctly, she was already 7cm dilated. And she’s like, this baby’s like, coming, and it’s just a matter of when. It’s like you can’t stop it. You can pro. Try and delay the pregnancy as much as you can, but you are going to have this baby in the next probably 48 to 72 hours if you don’t take any affirmative action right now. So obviously we’re like thrown for a loop. We’re both like.

Jeff Loving: Crying like crazy, getting into our car, driving to the hospital. All those news just like, came into existence within like, 45 minutes of everything being bliss. And our doctor basically told us we can try to keep the baby in as long as we. As long as you can. But the likelihood of survival is next to zero. It’s like maybe 2% at this point. They were like, we can do an ultrasound right now to see what the gender is, because we didn’t know what the gender was at that point. We can do a blood test to see if there’s any kind of infection, do antibiotics to keep everything flowing. And so we did everything. We literally did everything we could with the minuscule amount of proactivity that we could at that point. And my wife ended up having to get an amniocentesis. And if somebody’s listening, doesn’t know what that is, it’s a very, very long needle that they stick into your stomach and they draw out amniotic fluid to see if there’s an infection inside the placenta. And it turns out there was an infection. And it was ruled inconclusive if the infection started while our baby was in the placenta or if it was due to.

Jeff Loving: Her basically going into labor. So it was like, was the cervix opening? The cause of it? Was it already an infection that caused the cervix to open? Like, we weren’t 100% sure on that, and it was just never. It was inconclusive because you couldn’t, like, which one came first. And so I had that done. And then our doctor basically told us, like, you have a choice. You can try and keep this baby inside of your wife for as long as possible. Since there is an infection, you have the risk of running her getting sepsis, potentially her dying in the process. If it goes untreated. And then, like, we don’t take affirmative action, and then the baby will for sure die. Or we deliver this baby now, and they probably won’t last for more than an hour. And we found out that we were having a boy and we already knew his name. We. We’re gonna name him Davion, Davion Miles. And so his name stands for our beloved soldier. We were like, he’s a fighter. He’s strong. Like, we’re gonna try and keep him in as long as possible. And he ended up being delivered actually.

Jeff Loving: November 24th. So two days ago was four years already, which is just crazy to think that it was already four years ago. Yeah, so two days ago was his four year anniversary. But, yeah, holding him, he was. He survived for about 43 minutes. And he didn’t have any lungs, but he was just holding on with whatever he had. And he was only about 8.9 ounces, I believe it was. And so he’s just baby tiny. Like, he’s so, so tiny. And like, he could fit. His whole body could fit in the palm of my hand. And just holding him and just seeing his. His heart beating through his chest, and it’s just.

Jeff Loving: That was my first introduction into being a parent. The emotion that came over us in that moment of, like, we are parents, but not in the way that we ever imagined to be parents. And it just broke us. Honestly, it was so excruciatingly hard to walk through that because the very next day happened to be Thanksgiving. And so we got discharged on Thanksgiving Day. We were originally going to go to my family’s farm for the holiday and have a great Thanksgiving, everything, but they ended up coming down to us and my parents were there for his birth and everything. And so they, they and my sister and her family were able to provide us with a meal and everything. And them just saying, like, there’s no expectations. We can talk about it. We don’t have to talk about it.

Jeff Loving: And we’re just here for you guys, whatever you need. And that was, like, so encouraging to have that. That year was actually gonna be my 30th birthday. And my wife was like, hey, I’m gonna. I’m gonna plan you a party. She didn’t tell me this beforehand. It was supposed to be a surprise party because what we were originally gonna do was share Devian’s gender at my. At my birthday party. So we knew what his gender was, obviously. And she was like, do you want to still have this party? And I was like, well, we’re planning the party for that Saturday, which also coincided with, like, okay, since everybody’s already gonna be in town for the party, and let’s have his funeral in the morning and then we’ll do my party in the afternoon. And my gosh, talk about the most emotionally roller coaster of a birthday weekend. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I’m so thankful that we did that because it was like, it made the most sense so that people didn’t have to come into town and then leave and then come back into town. But, gosh, it was so excruciating to watch that ceremony be part of that ceremony, because I’ve been to so many funerals before, like, loved ones of friends, but I’ve never been like, this was my child. You know what I mean? You feel something different when it’s your. Your flesh and blood, your Child. Yeah.

Speaker A: Wow. Death and birth in one day.

Jeff Loving: Exactly. Right. You know, with all within, like, seven days. We gave birth to our son. He passed away the same. Within the same hour. And then we were burying him, like, seven days later. And it’s just like.

Jeff Loving: I, I. That week is just such a blur.

Speaker A: Honestly, I was gonna say. I can imagine that.

Jeff Loving: Yeah.

Speaker A: It’s not super clear when you look back.

Jeff Loving: No, exactly. Honestly, like, we were just. We were just going through the motions. We were just going through, like, funeral arrangements. And genuinely speaking, looking back on it, it was like we wouldn’t have been able to get anything done had it not been for the community that we had. Honestly, like, we still think about how blessed we are with the people that we have in our lives across the country, across the world, to be honest, just came around us and just, like, filled our space with love and support when we just were like, we have nothing right now. Like, we are at our end. And after his funeral is really when it started to ramp up. And in that department of, like, it was about a month and a half after was when the holidays had passed. Holidays are really hard still. Holidays had passed. People are going back to their new. Their lives. It’s after New Year’s. And it’s. It’s funny because it’s like, I hear the. The quote of, like, you go through something so tragic, it could be whatever it is, our case, it’s just a loss of our first child. And you go through this tragedy and there’s a pause where everybody comes around you. But then after that pause is over with, everybody goes back to their normal lives, but you’re still stuck with this grief. And it’s nothing against the people. Like, I would. I. I’ve done the same thing, you know, Like, I’ve. When you’re in that, it feels like you are literally an island by yourself sitting in that grief. And so that was really hard to wrestle with. And kind of what I told you at the very beginning was I looked for resources for me. I really did. I looked everywhere, and I was gifted. One book that was like, a bunch of letters that were compiled by this female author who reached out to a bunch of dads of loss and they all wrote a letter about their kids. Great book, Wonderful resource.

Jeff Loving: I just didn’t feel like it was me, though. Like, it was. It wasn’t coming from a place of, like, a father of loss sat down and wrote out their entire.

Jeff Loving: Grief story, or, like, how did they walk through this? Like, how did they go from losing their child to Reconciliation. Like, they were just short letters that some of them were only, like, two paragraphs long, which, again, if that was the goal, nailed it. But that’s not what I was looking for, and I needed something more. And if that was the only thing I had to go off of, I was like.

Jeff Loving: Like, my wife had, like, so many agencies reaching out to her and being like, hey, we have, like, this support groups, or we have, like, therapy. We have these women’s groups and, like, infertility clinics and, like, all this amazing resources.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: And I was like, please, for my sake, go utilize all these things. And. And she did. She. And she really, really needed those things.

Jeff Loving: And that’s something that I. I’ve learned and I really emphasize when I talk to people about. This is like, those support organizations for mothers of loss like, are so important, and I love every single one of their resources. I just wish that there were more for dads.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Loving: I really do.

Speaker A: And thinking about that book that you were gifted, the one book that existed. The one book.

Jeff Loving: Yep.

Speaker A: Would you feel different about it if it was written by a father? Is that the big thing that was missing? Okay.

Jeff Loving: I really do. All of the letters inside the book were written by dads, but they’re compiled by a female, which is fine. I just felt that there was just, like, that slight disconnect in my. In my own heart of, like, yeah, the intention is there, but I need it coming directly from another man that took the initiative to do this, not somebody else, that is another parent of loss, and compile all these for men, which is great. I just personally needed it to be, like, another guy that knows exactly what it’s like to be a father of loss, to compile those and then write something up and be like, this is why I did this was because.

Jeff Loving: I felt like an island, and I’m doing this for you. Another father of loss. Then if that was the case, oh, my gosh, it would have been like, this is my. This is my one resource book that I’m gonna give to everybody. But it was helpful for the time, but it wasn’t as impactful as I needed it to be, to the point where it was, like, we were told very early on from another couple that had gone through a loss, like, 20 years ago. They were like, you know, this.

Jeff Loving: This season. And this type of pain that you go through really does test your. Your marriage vows. And that’s something that I’ve been really wrestling with even recently of, like, the realization was, when you go to a wedding, it’s like, you hear those vows and everything, and. And they’re great. But, like, really thinking about it and really thinking back to our specific vows, I was like, wow, we have walked through both sides, like, the good and the bad, through this one loss. And that couple told us. They were like, you’re gonna. It’s gonna test your marriage vows.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: And it’s also going to put your marriage on a knife’s edge. It’s gonna either break you, and you’re just going to separate and go your. Your own way, and that’s fine. Like, it’s. If that is what is best for your mental health, do that, or you’re going to fall the other way, and it is going to refine and strengthen your marriage, and you will be resilient, and you will be able to walk through anything because you walk through this together. When we were going through it, it was like, there were some times where I was like, are we going to make it? Like. Like, are we gonna make it as a married couple? Like, we’re. We’re in our first year, first full year of marriage, and we’re already going through this.

Jeff Loving: It was really hard. I think that. I think for me, personally, the most difficult part of this, during that time of grieving, was seeing my wife.

Jeff Loving: So broken.

Speaker A: Mm.

Jeff Loving: Physically having carried our son and now not being pregnant and having to live with that grief, and me.

Jeff Loving: Having that.

Jeff Loving: Instilled idea of, like, I want to fix things. Being so humbled and put into my place of saying, I can’t fix this.

Speaker A: Yeah, there’s nothing to fix.

Jeff Loving: Exactly. And being told by men who haven’t gone through this saying, what are you doing? You don’t have time to grieve. You need to go take care of your wife. You need to go take care of your house. You need to be working. You need to be making food. Like, you need to be taking care of her. And it’s like, I wear my heart on my sleeve. I’m. I’m not shy to show my emotions and. Or cry. So, like, I genuinely felt conflicted. I was like, when do I get to grief the loss of our son? Like, when is it my turn? And that was. That was a really dark season in our. In my life. We’ve always been Christian, but that time in our faith, it really, really put our faith to the test.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: Of course. Of, like, I don’t want to go to church right now. I don’t want to worship. I don’t want to read my Bible. I don’t want to do that, because how Am I supposed to praise a God that I’ve put all of my trust and my hope into, and I have to walk through that and experience the taking of an innocent child away from us for no reason? It just happened out of nowhere, and I was just, like, blindsided. And I. Actually. There’s a part in the book when I was originally writing it where I didn’t have that in there, and my wife was like, you should put that in there. Like, you should put in the character wrestling with his faith, because if you don’t, that’s not true to your story.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it’s so common, too.

Jeff Loving: It’s so common. Oh, my gosh. And so I put that in there. I wish I could read you, like, the first draft of it, because it was, like, so explicit, and I was, like, letting the rage flow. It was very therapeutic for me.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure.

Jeff Loving: But honestly, like, just being able to write out what I was feeling and not feeling guilty for sharing those emotions was very, very freeing for me. And it has changed my relationship in that regard. It has really refined what I believe and how I wrestle these tough questions. And I’m not scared to be willing to bring those questions up and wrestle with them, because it is, for some, it’s a delicate topic to talk about. It’s like, somewhere I can’t tread because it’s sacrilegious or it goes against my religion. It’s like, no, I’m willing to bring that to the table and talk about that, because I want to wrestle with it, and I want to have my feelings heard, you know?

Speaker A: Well, I mean, if we’re doing all this work to heal authentically.

Jeff Loving: Mm.

Speaker A: It’s really important to name all the. The parts of that, even the really hard, dark parts of it that maybe are not as. As accepted or, you know, openly discussed. But I mean, if, like your wife said, if you’re leaving out parts that are really genuine to you, then what are we even doing here?

Jeff Loving: Absolutely. Yeah. And I was gonna say culturally acceptable.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: Especially in. In, like, a Christian space. It’s like, that’s a no. No. Like, that’s taboo. Don’t. Don’t bring your darkest portions to light. It’s like, that’s how you heal. That’s right. It’s the whole point of the grieving, the healing process, is to dredge up those really dark portions of your. Your process and your. Your grief and to manifest it, to be like, this is what I actually need to deal with and to grow from it. Right. So, long story short, we both went to therapy. It was great.

Speaker A: Individually or couples or both?

Jeff Loving: Individually, no. Individually, yeah, we both individually. We decided, like, we could do couples therapy, but we genuinely were like, we need individual grieving therapy process. Because if I don’t. If I don’t heal the brokenness in my own heart, I cannot show up and be the best husband for you and vice versa. And so that was. That was a huge step for us. Obviously, we. We both had been in therapy prior to that for other things, but, like, that was so important for us to, like, make that decision together. To do it individually. Yeah, it was. It was very healing. So to continue a little bit into our story, we were like, what if we ever moved to North Carolina? Like, what? Like, in the back of our mind, we went to Asheville, and we were like, what if we lived out here? Like, imagine living in the mountains. Be amazing. And we were like, but we live in Nebraska. We live in the flatlands. Like, we’re never going to move to North Carolina. That’s crazy. We have nobody out here, no family whatsoever. And so when we lost Davian, we genuinely, like, sat down one day and we’re like, what about North Carolina?

Speaker A: Yeah, just change everything.

Jeff Loving: Exactly. And we’re like, we just need a season of change, and we need a season of healing. And the mountains, to us, are very healing. And we loved North Carolina. We loved our visit out here. And so we came out here in February, did, like, an exploratory trip, found the city that we live in now, fell in love with it, and about, I don’t know, three, four weeks later, we bought a house via FaceTime, and then we moved here that following May. So. And we’ve been here since May 2022. And it was like, that happened a lot faster than we were expecting it to, but.

Jeff Loving: We just packed up a U Haul, drove across halfway across the country and bought a house, because. Why not? Yeah, and we lived here. And so we. We actually got plugged into a church out here, and it was really great. Met some amazing people, community group. We shared our story, like, very first time we ever met with that community group. And we were not expecting to opened up so quickly, but we were just like, this is us. Like, surprise. Like, you can take us or leave us. We don’t really care. This is just our trauma. So. Trauma dumping on you guys. But they’re very, very accepting. It actually was really beautiful because every single person in that group had gone through some kind of child loss, infertility, adoption. Like, every single couple had gone through something. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Okay, Well, I think we found the right group. And so that was really encouraging. And then it took us about another year to really, really come out of our deep grief with Davian. So it took us about two years to, like, a year and a half to fully, like, start feeling like ourselves again, feeling joy, seeing hope. Like, Mother’s Day and Father’s Day were extremely hard, both the years that we went through it. And in that year from when we moved out here. So, like, 2022 to summer 2023, we had been going through a stage of infertility. We. We. We wanted to try again, but we just. It was. I don’t know if it was because of the grief. I don’t know if it was because of the mindset that we were in, but we just. We went through a season of infertility, and it was unexplainable. Like, we didn’t know what was going on. And during that time, thankfully, we were able to connect with fertility and education birth doula through a mutual friend, and she lives up in Indiana. And when Cassie, my wife, initially was like, hey, I want to take this course and learn about fertility stuff and, like, talk to. Talk to this doula and stuff, I was like, what’s a doula gonna do? She doesn’t know her story. I don’t know what they are. Like, I don’t know anything about this lady. That’s a lot of money.

Jeff Loving: And the doula. Our friend Cammie was like, just give me one chance. Like, give me two weeks of information and see where it goes. So I was like, okay. So I trusted her.

Speaker A: And.

Jeff Loving: To this day, honestly.

Jeff Loving: She was so impactful for our story in such a positive way. And, like.

Jeff Loving: Words cannot describe how thankful I am for her for as much.

Jeff Loving: Healing and encouragement and empowering that she put into my wife during that season of infertility. And just, like, getting to the point where we did end up getting pregnant in August of 2023. And it would. I genuinely say, if it had not been for Cami, we would not have gotten pregnant again because we were all out of ideas. We didn’t know what was going on. But with her help with her education.

Jeff Loving: She directed us on what we should do. Some helpful things, information.

Jeff Loving: Questions to ask doctors how to be confident when we go into our appointments, ask for specific blood tests to test, specific things that aren’t usually tested because the doctors are like, oh, you don’t need that. And she was like, no, you do. You should really get this done, because it’s like empowering to.

Jeff Loving: Hear from a professional.

Jeff Loving: Tell my wife like, you deserve this medical care and these are the things that are going to get you to that point. And it’s unfortunate that we have to like twist medical professionals arms to get that information. And.

Jeff Loving: So yeah, it was very encouraging that we were able to hear that from her and to have those questions written out or those blood tests written out that we needed to get. So when we did get pregnant, our doctor, after we had delivered Davian told us his hypothesis was that my wife had an incompetent cervix, basically meaning that she just dilated early. And his recommendation was to get a cerclage done if we got pregnant again. So if, if somebody doesn’t know what a cerclage is. I didn’t know what this was either.

Speaker A: I don’t know.

Jeff Loving: It’s basically so it’s a non invasive medical procedure where they numb basically from the waist down and they go in and they stitch to like they suture your cervix shut.

Jeff Loving: And so that you can’t dilate before you’re ready. It has like a 95% success rate.

Speaker A: Wow.

Jeff Loving: And so it’s like really, really non invasive. It’s a very common procedure. It’s been studied, it’s been practiced for like 30 years. And it’s a very highly encouraged procedure to get. And he was like, you should get that. And we were like, sounds great. So when we were meeting with our doctor, we since she’s high risk, since she had a loss, we went to the high risk doctor. We said at week 12, hey, we’d like to get a circlage because that’s when you get it is between 12 and 14 weeks. So at our eight week appointment we’re like, hey, just so you know, this is our medical history, you already can see it. We’d like to get a circlage done at week 12.

Jeff Loving: And unfortunately that this doctor was not convinced that my wife had an incompetent cervix and was basically told us I’m not going to preemptively give you a cerclage because of the infection that was in her amniocentesis test.

Jeff Loving: If I could turn back time, I would politely leave that office and go find another opinion. But at the time we were brand new to town, we had just gotten pregnant, we didn’t know any better. And he said Starting at week 16, we will start to monitor every two weeks to see how, how stuff is going.

Jeff Loving: Going for our first appointment, week 16, her cervix length was at about 4.7 centimeters, which is a very healthy length. And we were like, okay, so what would be concerning? And he said, if it gets below 2.5cm in length, I’ll do an emergency circlage. Not great news, but we’re like, okay, come back. Two weeks later.

Jeff Loving: It had shortened from 4.7 to 2.9 centimeters. And in my, my mind red flags are going off. We’re like, hey, we’d like to get that now. That’s, that’s a pretty big jump. And he’s like, no, I just really, it’s really not. Like in grand scheme of things, it’s really not. And I think that you guys are, might be blowing this out of proportion. And I feel like you should just really be patient and just like, trust the process. I don’t think it’s going to amount to anything. We’re like, okay, okay, sounds great. Mind you, this is going into Thanksgiving. So that week already.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: Was a lot of emotion, a lot of stress. And I forgot to mention that our, our second. We found out we were having another boy. So our second son’s due date was exactly eight days after Davian’s. So their, their pregnancies were literally like a week apart. And so obviously already our emotions are high. It’s like a mirror of our first pregnancy. Do. Are we gonna live through this again? Are we gonna, like, actually have a son this time? Like, what’s going on? So going into Thanksgiving, we were, we were hopeful. We get through Thanksgiving, we come back and we’re going into week 19 and we go in on that Wednesday.

Jeff Loving: And it had shortened from 2.9 to 2.7. And we’re like, okay, hear me out. We’re 0.2 away from you having to do an emergency cerclage. Can we just get it done today and then we don’t have to worry about it? And he’s like, nah, I’m not convinced. If you would like to get a second opinion, that’s fine, but I’m just, I just don’t feel comfortable doing it right now. Now, the caveat with that was he said we could get a second opinion, but he never gave us information on who to go contact for a second opinion.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: And so we’re like, okay, well, we just trust you. Like, you, you’ve been doing this for 40 something years and you’ve been doing circlages for like 35 of those 40 years. And you’re very comfortable doing them. Like, we trust you. You have your best interest in mind.

Jeff Loving: That following Sunday was my birthday. So as you remember, we had our, our first son’s funeral the day after my birthday. And my wife was like, what do you want to do for your birthday this year? And I was like, I just want to chill at home and just, yeah, just get through, get through this day because it will be great if we do. We did that. We just chilled at home that night. We were going to bed, and my wife calls me into the bathroom.

Jeff Loving: And says, I think I know what is happening, but I need you to confirm it for me. And I look down there and sure enough, her. Her amniotic sac was starting to descend. It’s like, yeah, I think we need to go to the hospital. I’m. I’m like beside myself. I’m like screaming at the wheel. I specifically remember that exact. I remember that drive. We were both like, breaking down while we were driving. Get to the hospital, get checked in. It’s like midnight on that Monday.

Jeff Loving: They’re doing everything that they can. They’ve got her head, like, down and her feet elevated to try and keep gravity keeping the amnio sac in and everything. We have a travel nurse and she was wonderful. And it was about noon on Monday. And I go downstairs because I was just gonna go grab us some food, you know, I was maybe gone 10 minutes if that. And we asked the nurse like, hey, we would like to have nobody come in this room aside from you being the nurse until I get back. So 10 minutes. In that 10 minute time frame, that doctor that was our specialist shows up, follows the nurse in, even though she said they don’t want any visitors until Jeff is back in the room, just disregards that, follows the nurse in, has a whiteboard with him, proceeds to start drawing out a diagram. What is happening, says, so we missed the cerclage window. So you’re basically going to have to deliver this baby. With North Carolina’s new laws, I’m not 100% sure on the timing, if it would be considered an abortion if you decide to preemptively deliver this baby or. Or what. So we just want to cover all of our basis and not get into any legal trouble in the future. However, I would highly suggest that you do an abdominal stitch, which is. And he started drawing on the whiteboard at this point. And an abdominal stitch is where you open up the woman’s stomach and you basically, like, stitch above their cervix so that.

Jeff Loving: Wouldn’t be able to descend into the vagina. And then she would have to get a cesarean birth every Single time after that. And he’s like. And this. This has, like, a hundred percent success rate. Like, you can. You can get this. I would highly recommend this next time for your pregnancy. I’m so sorry about the situation that you’re currently in, but that’s just what I recommend. Moving forward. And then just leaves.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. Blood is, like, boiling, right?

Jeff Loving: And so I’m walking back up to the room at this point, not knowing anything. Missed all of this. I see him in the hallway, and I. In my mind, I was like, I want to punch you just because of what you’ve put us through already. And then I get in the room, and my wife is hysterically crying. The nurse is trying to calm her down. I’m like, I have chick fil a in my hand. I’m like, what is happening? Like. And then she told me. I was. I ran out of the room looking for that man because I was like, I’m going to probably end up in jail if I find this man. Luckily, I didn’t. I calmed down. But we asked our doctor, like, that was seeing us in the hospital. We were like, we want to transfer to the other hospital immediately. And she was like, I fully agree with that decision. They have a better NICU. It’s one of the best NICUs in the state. And if your son is able to survive, he’s going to have a way better chance over there than over here. So we did. We transferred immediately. The. The level of care and intentionality at that other hospital, and nothing against the first hospital we were at. They’re. They’re wonderful people. They’re really good at what they do.

Speaker A: Just that with the exception of one doctor.

Jeff Loving: With the exception of the one doctor. And he’s like, especially clinic. So he’s not even really at the hospital. But we moved to this other hospital, and the amount of care and just like, feeling seen and heard went from zero to, like, above a hundred within a matter of minutes. Because all of those nurses, they all knew our situation.

Jeff Loving: And those nurses were honestly what got us through that time because of their bedside manner, of their intentionality, of their questions, of their just being there for us. During this whole time, I had called my family, her family, her best friend, and my parents were driving down 18 hours, and they drove overnight. Her parents came down from Maryland, and then her best friend also came down from Ohio. And luckily we were able to hold on. And they all. All three of those groups were able to get down to us before she delivered him.

Jeff Loving: I kind of alluded to it before, but like our faith was really tested again.

Jeff Loving: Because it’s like, how.

Jeff Loving: How cruel could it be that we would have to go through this exact same situation a second time in a row? We did everything that we could possibly do to save our son and we were failed because the medical staff didn’t listen to us. And we met with the doctor the next next morning and she was so gentle and she was so heartbroken for our situation and she’s like, if I could have been your doctor, I would have given your cerclage at week 12, no questions.

Jeff Loving: And we also met a wonderful woman who has grown into a wonderful friend who is the bereavement coordinator at that hospital. And her name is literally angel. And she was an actual angel, I genuinely say that. And she was able to just be with us and bring humor.

Jeff Loving: But also allow us to sit with our grief. And we had shared with her his name. So his name is Jaden Noah, which basically means God has heard. One of her co workers actually was able to record his heartbeat while he was still in utero and they were able to put it into a little black bear and so we can like play his heartbeat whenever we want to. So basically he was, he was born later that night. And having to walk through.

Jeff Loving: That second loss was more manageable because of the people around us. Unfortunately. We had been there before so we knew what kind of to expect.

Jeff Loving: But we also just knew we’d been here before and we’re not going to walk out on each other. And we both know what we needed to grieve again. And we were very patient with one another, we were very kind towards one another and we were just like, you just need your time, go have your time. I need my time. I’m going to take it right now. And just being there for each other, just open communication.

Jeff Loving: And I remember a week after we delivered him, we were back in that doctor’s office, the new one, not the, not the specialist, we haven’t seen him since, but with our new doctor. And I specifically remember sitting in her office and she’s asking my wife all these questions, you know, like the follow up questions like mental health. And at the end of her questioning, she turns to me.

Jeff Loving: And says, how are you.

Jeff Loving: And how can I support you in this? I don’t remember what I said. I can tell you I remember how I felt. It was the first time in three and a half years that I had actually been seen, felt, seen by a medical professional, feeling seen as.

Jeff Loving: A partner with my wife, that I also lost my child.

Speaker A: So what’s coming up right now as you’re thinking back on that?

Jeff Loving: Just the importance to remind other dads have lost that even though we never physically carried our child.

Jeff Loving: That we also lost our children.

Jeff Loving: And that’s so important to remember.

Jeff Loving: And that, and that your grief is not comparable to anybody else’s. Shortly, about almost a year after we lost our second son, Jaden, or we had some friends come out and visit us and they had also recently had a loss and they had an eight week loss. And I remember talking to him and he’s like, I always think about your guys story.

Jeff Loving: And I just, I feel guilty for feeling bad about our story because our story isn’t as bad as yours. We only had an eight week loss and you guys lost two kids at 20, 20 weeks in one day and 19 weeks and four days. And he’s like, I don’t feel like I have the permission to grieve. And I was like, that is absolutely not true. It doesn’t matter what week or how old your, your child was. Like you still lost that child and you have every right to grieve that child. And I honestly like, when I think about that conversation and he told me later, he’s like, honestly, that was what I needed to hear in that moment. Yeah.

Speaker A: That your grief is valid.

Jeff Loving: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s why I wrote the book, because it was like I wanted to give credence to all of those different stories of all those different types of grief that like you said, your grief is valid and is so important to be willing to talk about it and to truly heal from it. But never not, not heal from it in a sense of it will go away, but to live alongside it.

Speaker A: Right, yeah. Was the book something that you were thinking of before the second loss or did it really all come about after?

Jeff Loving: That’s a great question. So after Davian, I knew I wanted to write something, but I didn’t know what I was gonna write. I actually wrote a poem that I was like, I can make this into a children’s book and call it Dino Dave. And because we got like a little weighted dinosaur with like his exact birth weight and stuff. And so I wrote up this thing and it was like the day of his funeral, I woke up at like 3am Because I was like, I can’t sleep. I wrote this thing and.

Jeff Loving: And our friend read it at his funeral and it was so beautiful, so needed in that time. And maybe I’ll go circle back to it and write a, a children’s book. But after Jaden is. When I really sat down, I was like, I need to write something. I need to write a book. Like, I need to write about our story, but not even that. I need to write with in mind other fathers of loss that I know personally. And so that’s where the inspiration from the book came, was writing it for those men that have never gotten to share their stories and putting it into a context of. It is a fictional book only in the sense that the main character is like me, personified through my emotion, and is just, like, living in his head. But he’s meeting these fathers. He meets three fathers, and all three of them are actual people that we know personally, and it’s their stories. And so the first one is inexplained infertility, and they went the adoption route, and it’s the loss of never being a biological father. And the second is they had a loss about the same time that we did with Davion, and they went the IVF route. And then the third one was some friends of ours that unfortunately lost their second, second child to trisamine, 18. And I didn’t know what that was. Hormonal imbalance in your chromosomes. And their base. They had a. They had a living son, and he was three at the time, I believe. And they found out that their second child was diagnosed with trisomy 18. The doctor basically told them, like, it’s a matter of when you’re gonna lose this child versus if you’re gonna lose this child. And to have to carry that child knowing, like, it could be any moment and just. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. All three of them just. Still.

Jeff Loving: They hit me so hard every time, and I was very thankful that they were willing to be open and honest with their story. Just knowing that their stories were being able to be told.

Jeff Loving: Was so important for them as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. I was curious about you choosing to write it from, like, a kind of fictional character. Right. Versus your own. And that makes sense, though, that it’s this. Like you said, your. Your emotions, and almost this, like, bird’s eye view. And noting also that it. Miles. Right. The main character name is also your first son’s middle name.

Jeff Loving: Yep.

Speaker A: Right. Okay. Was that a hard decision to name the character? Did it feel.

Jeff Loving: It just felt right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: Because he ends up meeting another character named Noah, which is Jaden’s middle name. And I’m not going to tell you who Noah is. The author. Read the book.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: But it’s kind of.

Jeff Loving: It was an easy decision, and it was a way to honor both Boys. Because both those characters play a very pivotal role in that story.

Speaker A: So I know that we are going to end this episode with you reading a passage from your book. And if you don’t mind showing the COVID of the book also.

Jeff Loving: Absolutely. But, yeah, this is what it looks like. So holding on to the light and this beautiful. Like, it’s very simple art design.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Jeff Loving: But honestly, my friend Megan was out in Nebraska, and I. I just asked her, I was like, could you just like, create something for me? Like, very simple. I don’t need anything extravagant. And I told her, like, the title of the book, and this is what she came up with. And I was like, that is exactly what I was hoping for. Like, it’s exactly what it was. Oh, my gosh. When she sent it back to her, like, I’m. I’m in tears again. I’m crying again. So. But yeah, it was great.

Jeff Loving: So, yeah, this is from later in the book. He’s meeting with a character, one of our friends, actually his name. His name is actually Light in real life. So this is Light in his conversation and says Light hummed an agreeable tone. And from what you have experienced thus far, how would you describe the feeling of losing a child? If someone asked you, what is the rawest explanation you can give?

Jeff Loving: The heaviness of losing a child is, in short.

Jeff Loving: Unimaginable. It permeates every aspect of life down to the core of your being. It’s a weight that feels both suffocating and isolating, wrapping around your heart and mind, making it hard to breathe or think clearly when you are in the thick of it. The initial shock can leave you feeling numb, as if you’re moving through a fog where everything seems distant, muted, and pointless. As the reality sets in, the heaviness intensifies as well. It’s a profound sense of grief that can feel like an endless ache, a gaping hole where hopes and dreams for your future once lived, now stripped away without hesitation. Every moment is a reminder of what was lost. From the smallest memories to the biggest milestones that will never happen. There’s a pervasive sense of emptiness, accompanied by deep sorrow and a longing for what might have been. I can speak for myself that I also felt a sense of guilt. Questions replayed in my mind, wondering if I could have done something differently. In addition, the societal and cultural expectations to be strong or to move on can add yet another layer of the already.

Jeff Loving: Mounting pressure, making it harder for us as men to express our true feelings, thus leading to isolation that can deepen the pain it is a messy journey where each day brings new challenges and waves of motion that you are not you are forced to face or be swallowed by. Ultimately, the heaviness of losing a child is not just about the loss itself.

Jeff Loving: It’s about the profound and life changing shift to your reality, your identity, and your overall future. It’s a burden that many carry in silence, seeking understanding and connection in a world that often feels indifferent, distant, or unable to comprehend fully the depths of our pain.

Jeff Loving: Wow.

Speaker A: It’s beautiful.

Jeff Loving: I’m crying again.

Jeff Loving: Surprise, surprise. I’m crying again.

Speaker A: It’s healthy, right?

Jeff Loving: Absolutely healthy.

Speaker A: And going back to healing authentically. Yeah. And I think that as you’ve already touched on, it’s also just such an important reminder too, of stereotypical what men are allowed to do within their healing spaces. And you being able to demonstrate, like, men can cry, men can feel emotion, men can, you know, heal in different ways. And so I think that’s really powerful too, that we don’t still have enough of, enough representation of that.

Jeff Loving: Absolutely. Yeah. The last thing, last thing I’ll say is, and this is an encouragement to me and maybe it’s an encouragement to somebody that’s listening, but.

Jeff Loving: So one of the biggest things that I’ve been pushing for with this book is for people to leave reviews on Amazon. Like, that’s the biggest thing that I’ve, like, obviously I want it to be a resource for people, but then like leaving reviews, like that’s, that’s so important to get the word out there about the book. But specifically what I wanted to share about that was our best friend or my wife’s best friend that actually was there for Jaden’s birthday. She has a pretty big following on Instagram. I do not. She, she read the book and she did a book, honest book review, you know, and she’s like, I was there. Like, I can attest to these events. I know what that room was like. I know what that birth situation was like. And I can tell you when you read this book, that is what was felt in that room. And she said in that video, if you know of anybody that would benefit from this book, buy it for them. If you have the, the funds to do so, buy it for yourself to understand how to walk alongside that person. Or if you want to gift it anonymously, like, do that as well. So that that video published about.

Jeff Loving: Three weeks later, a month later, I get this random or message on Instagram from this, this gal, I’ve never met her, have no idea who she is. And she messages me and she’s like, hey, you’ve never met me. You don’t know anything about me. But I know about you, and I know about your story.

Jeff Loving: Because about three weeks ago, your book showed up at our doorstep.

Jeff Loving: Unannounced.

Jeff Loving: And I read your book in one sitting.

Jeff Loving: And my husband read your book.

Jeff Loving: And my husband told me that this was the first book that he’s not only read in a decade, but it was also the first time that he actually felt seen in our journey.

Jeff Loving: Because we just lost our son last December. So December 2024, at 19 weeks.

Jeff Loving: Due to the same exact situation that you guys went through.

Jeff Loving: I was like, what the heck? Wow. Oh, my gosh. And I. I genuinely told my wife, I was like, if I never sell another book, I could care less. Because that right there, that’s who that book was written for, right? That father. And so that’s. That’s just, like, one example that I’ve had of people, like, responding to. Exactly. And.

Jeff Loving: Yeah, like, again, it’s not because I was like, oh, I want to be a top 100 bestseller list or whatever, or, like, Amazon’s number one. Like, I just. I really go back to the heart behind the book is not for me to make monetary value out of it. It’s to bring a voice to those fathers and those families of loss that don’t know how to express their grief, have never been taught, have been shunned away from a societal standpoint as being a man and just being invited and given the permission to enter into that grief. Because I guarantee, if a man enters into that grief and is willing to communicate what they’re feeling with their. With their wife, it’s gonna blossom into something beautiful in that marriage.

Jeff Loving: Firsthand experience. I can tell you, my wife and I joke that we’ve lived 30 years and five years. Yeah, but.

Speaker A: Definitely sounds true.

Jeff Loving: Exactly. But honestly, like, couldn’t have made it through it without her. And I wouldn’t have been able to had I not opened up to her about what I was actually feeling. And so that’s my encouragement is, read my book, don’t read my book. It doesn’t matter. Open up about your grief. Talk about your kids. And if you’re somebody that knows somebody that has lost a child, ask them about their children, say their names. Because I guarantee that given the right circumstance, if they’re in the right headspace, they will gladly talk about their children every single time. Because I’m always willing to talk about our boys. And I. I get the gift of talking about our boys to our daughter, eventually. And I know that’s not everybody’s story, but, like, we were blessed with. With a little girl, and she’s a NICU baby, and she’s thriving now, but seeing her.

Jeff Loving: We put up our tree recently, and we have little ornaments with our son’s footprints. And so we dedicate, like.

Jeff Loving: Up until December 6th is when Jaden’s birthday is. So, like, from the. Basically the 20th of November through December 6th, it’s just like the boy’s tree and her and now her tree, but just seeing her interact with those ornaments and, like, touching them and just seeing them, and eventually she’ll know the story behind them. Like.

Jeff Loving: It’s so important, as hard as it is, but I’m just thankful to be able to share it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. And as you’ve named, it’s. It’s not just your story. It’s your son’s story, it’s your wife’s story. It’s. It’s your daughter’s story. And so there’s so much in there. And I just. The last thing that I want to reflect on is I also really appreciate the. The different ways that you have creatively, like, honored your grief, because I think people are always looking for different ways to.

Speaker A: Like, have something tangible, something to hold. You talked about the weighted Dino, Dave. Right. You talked about the heartbeat and the other bear. You talked about in your book, you name different characters, the middle name of your sunset that you lost. And so I just. I think it’s very encouraging, too, that you have done things like that. And I think that it’s really important for people to hear about those different ways that you and your wife have decided to continue to honor your son’s memories through, again, very, like, tangible things you can hold. And so I just really appreciate you sharing those parts of this, too.

Jeff Loving: Yeah, absolutely. Like you said, I try to find different ways to honor them. And a friend of mine actually encouraged me to start a sub stack. And so every Monday I write an article about being a lost parent and writing about grief and life after loss. And so that’s just another thing that I do if anybody is interested in, like, reading about that, like, if they like my book and they’re like, I want more, like, you can find me on Instagram. Find me on substack. And so.

Speaker A: And I’ll put the links to all of that on the. In the show notes also, so people can easily find it.

Jeff Loving: Yes, absolutely. So, yeah, that’s what I would just say is, like, you’re not an island. And your grief matters.

Speaker A: Powerful ending messages for sure. All right, Jeff, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And, yeah, I’ll look forward to reading your book.

Jeff Loving: Yes. Thank you so much for your time. This has been wonderful. Thank you for letting me cry. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. But, yeah, this is a wonderful conversation, and I love what you’re doing, and I just. I wish you all the best in the future. So thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thanks, Jeff. You, too.