Numbing Grief: Addiction, Relapse, and Learning to Feel Again

Speaker A
This is Nothing happens for a reason.

Speaker B
Hi, Justin.

Speaker C
How are you today?

Speaker B
Good. How are you?

Speaker C
I’m doing well.

Speaker B
Thanks for being here.

Speaker C
Thank you for having me.

Speaker B
Yeah, of course. Well, I’ll let you introduce yourself.

Speaker C
My name’s Justin Yarger. I’m a person in long term recovery, and I’m also a drug and alcohol counselor for a local treatment center in the Clackamas county area.

Speaker B
Awesome. Well, thanks for being here. As you know, this whole podcast is about grief. And I know that with you and lots of people, right, grief is a much broader term than maybe just physically losing people. And so I guess to start off, what does grief mean to you or what has your experience been with it?

Speaker C
Grief has been something that I’ve walked through my whole life in many different forms. I think a lot of people walk through grief in their whole life and don’t. I just didn’t realize that I was. I look back at my first sense of really realizing grief and mourning loss. You know, started really young as a child, having a mother who was a drug addict that disappeared from my life and, you know, put me up for adoption. And thankfully my grandparents adopted me and raised me. But as much as she tried to not make that happen, that was just the story how it worked out. And I put myself through a cycle of grief without even intentionally doing it because it was awkward. As a kid raised by your grandparents, all my friends growing up had brothers and sisters and younger parents. And, you know, I had parents who were wartime babies and, you know, were very vastly different than everybody else’s parents. So I created a story that my mom was dead. Cause I didn’t want to explain that my mom was a drug addict.

Speaker B
Oh, wow.

Speaker C
So, like. But it made me feel better because then I didn’t have to think about it, like, why she wasn’t there. She was just dead to me. And so I. I was just a kid who had a dead mom. But, like, then I would have to, like, experience those feelings. And then oddly, later enough in life, she. Well, not oddly because people do die, but then she died. And I actually had to walk through that process of what that was like and the feelings that came along with that as a teenager, especially when you’re also early in your. Your newfound drug addiction and. But I mean, I’ve experienced grief from, you know, all periods of life, loss of identity and just who I was and grieving, like, that process. And yeah, it’s been an interesting process.

Speaker B
When your mom actually did die, like, was there a part of you that felt like well, I’ve already been telling people that she’s been dead this whole time. So you already felt like you kind of did the grief thing, or was that not even part of it?

Speaker C
No. I was early in a methamphetamine addiction, and I spiraled extremely fast out of control with it, because it was a. It was the first time I had lost someone that was. Even though she wasn’t around, that was that close, like, to me. And there was a lot of, like, anger and rage that came out of that, because I felt like I was robbed of my chance to, like, tell her that I didn’t want to be part of her life or to tell her that I wanted to be part of her life.

Speaker B
And, like, you didn’t have the choice.

Speaker C
I didn’t. My choice was taken away. So I was. I was really angry about it. I was 17 years old when it happened, and I was very at a time, like, where there was a lot of tension between my grandparents and I, because I was going down a path of criminality and drug addiction and was really spiraling quickly. And then that was just what sent it into a dive. It was more awkward explaining it to my friends.

Speaker B
No. Cause they’re like, your mom already has died. What do you mean?

Speaker C
Yes. Yeah. I had friends that were like, why are you crying? What is going on? And I’m like, well, my mom died. And they’re like, your mom died when you were three.

Speaker B
They’re like, yeah, we know that.

Speaker C
And I’m like, no, here’s the real story. And so it was really, like, opening up those wounds again. Like, I always said this because I didn’t want to have to explain, you know, that my mom was a drug addict and it wasn’t around, even though it was normal. I had friends whose moms were drug addicts or dads were drug addicts and weren’t part of their life. It was just like, a story I created to make myself feel better about it, to not have to explain it, to not look at the abandonment of. Why didn’t my mom want to be part of my life? And so then to actually walk through that process, that was where I first, you know, my grandparents tried to put me in with a therapist, and they tried to talk about the stages of grief, and I thought it was complete bullshit. Cause they told me that this is how it’s gonna happen. And this chain. And I’m like, no, I’m having this. This. Like, that’s not how it’s working, and I’m not feeling certain parts of it, but I’m feeling these more. So I think this is just some overpriced bullshit that I need to put through.

Speaker B
How old were you when she died?

Speaker C
17.

Speaker B
17, okay. Yeah. I mean, as. As we know, my feelings about the stages of grief, but what a minimizing experience for you to. I mean, you were going through so many other struggles. Grandparents tried to do something good for you, and then to have a therapist who probably didn’t actually know a lot about grief.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker B
Explain it to you in a way that made you feel like something was wrong with you.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker B
Because you weren’t following the script a hundred percent.

Speaker C
And also knowing, like, my grandparents, I’m sure they were very frugal. So I’m sure they shopped around for this therapist and found the cheapest therapist.

Speaker B
Discount therapist.

Speaker C
Yeah, discount therapy. And I definitely. In a very seedy part of town. I do remember that. So. But that’s not to judge there. I just probably was a very discounted therapist. I mean, there was so many other things that went along with that, though, that, like, messed with the grief is. My grandparents made me the decision maker for pulling the plug on my mom.

Speaker B
Oh, my God.

Speaker C
At 17. But then later in life, while going through paperwork, I actually figured out that she had already passed. When they asked me the question.

Speaker B
What’S that about?

Speaker C
I don’t. I really. I think it was for them to kind of gauge what I was gonna do.

Speaker B
Like a sick social experience.

Speaker C
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B
No, just.

Speaker C
It was. I. Cause I. Looking back on it and looking at this situation, my grandfather didn’t want to participate in it, and my grandmother was the one who was really, like, pushing for that. And that now that I’m older, I look back at a lot of things through my childhood, and I see that more and more and more, like, weird, like, psych issues where she was, like, almost testing my psyche and, like, really putting me in situations. And some that made me a better person, some that really probably fueled a lot of my. My issues that, you know, I’m, like.

Speaker B
Trying to think of a scenario because I try to put myself not in even somebody’s shoes, but, like, what would be the reasoning behind that decision? And it just feels. Feels like a sick and I don’t, like, joke. Like, it seems. Right. It seems crazy.

Speaker C
Yes.

Speaker B
Wow. Were you able to ever ask them?

Speaker C
No, she had passed after. So oddly enough, is like, I never had access to this paperwork.

Speaker B
Okay.

Speaker C
Even though I was asked to make the decision, I was never given access to death records and things like that. But when you have impactful moments like that in your life. He likes date time. All that will, like, burn into your brain. And I can tell you the exact time when I was told she was involved in the car wreck. I can tell you the date, everything.

Speaker B
Oh, that’s how she died, from a.

Speaker C
Car accident, oddly enough. She was clean. She was a drug addict, but she died clean and sober. And she was killed by a drunk driver. And so that part was really difficult for me to process later in life. But, yeah, I remember my grandmother telling me that she was involved in a car wreck and that we were going to be faced with a decision. And them telling me that she was. That they were not going to accrue the costs that were going to come from this, that she had a certain amount of time that they were going to allow her to be on life support, and we had to make a decision. And, you know, I wanted to go see her. Thankfully, my grandfather talked me out of it. You know, he. He’s like, we’ll pay for it if you really want to do that. But you have no memories of your mom other than pictures and, like, some very fuzzy memories as a child. Like, not fuzzy in a happy way, but, like, I don’t. I can’t picture her face, you know, and he’s like, you don’t wanna see somebody in that situation with tubes and all of that. And, you know, now that I’m older and I’ve experienced seeing people on life support, he’s probably right, you know, I shouldn’t. And I’m glad I didn’t get to see that. But then the, you know, the question was, like, what would you do? Why in this situation, what do you want to do? Like, we are not going to pay for this. You know, we’re not going to be bankrupt from this. But you’re going to. It’s your mother. We’ve disowned her. And I had been living my life as an adult. You know, I had been out of school, working, paying rent, you know, and it was part of this. Like my grandmother told me, like, you want to be a man. This is stuff that happens in real life. Like, this is a decision you might have to make about us someday. Or your aunts and uncles or, you know, your wife or your husband, how. Or whatever way, you know, direction you go in life. Like, you will have to make this decision. So what decision are you going to make? And then, like I said later in life, after reviewing the paperwork. Cause I told her, I said, I can’t make this decision. Right now. And I left and I actually went and got loaded and came back the next day and sat down, talked to my grandparents about it midday. Told them it’s probably best that we, you know, remove her from life support, especially with her being an organ donor. If there’s any viable organs that, you know, this can go to save other people’s lives, like, so that’s the best decision to make. Unbeknownst to me, she’d been dead since five o’ clock that morning.

Speaker B
And your. Your grandparents knew?

Speaker C
Yeah, they knew. And they, like, let me walk through that. Maybe it was a good thing, you know, maybe it made me a better person. I don’t know, like, to this day, questionable.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
Questionable parenting. They. They had some very questionable parenting at times.

Speaker B
Wow. And what about your bio dad?

Speaker C
Never known him.

Speaker B
Never known him, never known him, have.

Speaker C
A good idea who he is, really have a relationship with him, you know, somewhat. Never have done a DNA test.

Speaker B
Wait, wait, wait, hold on. You don’t. You don’t know him. You think you know him and the person you think he is, you have a relationship with. Does he know you think he’s your dad? Okay.

Speaker C
Yeah, I think in an odd way, we don’t want to find out in case it’s not.

Speaker B
And.

Speaker C
But I was very open with him, you know, when this came out, that this was around the time I was having my youngest son. So I was in my. I’m 41 now. I was in my mid-20s, like close to late 20s. I just said I always had a father. Like, you might be my biological father, but you’ll never be my dad. Didn’t have the best dad in the world, but had a good one.

Speaker B
Your grandfather.

Speaker C
Yeah. And that’s a role you can’t ever fill. I would never allow you to try and fill. And for the fact that you’ve known that I’ve existed and this is a probability and have been within hundreds of miles of me my whole life, has his own family come to find out? Like, his wife that he had children with was my mother’s best friend. And like, oh, yikes. I possibly came about of a situation of infidelity in their marriage. So I, I get it. I’m happy with where my life’s at. It’s, you know, I’ve got my kids, I’ve built my life, I’ve established it. Most of my family’s passed away, so I’m content with where I’m at with it, you know?

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
It’s taught me and given me the ability to Be a better dad. And so that’s what I just focus on now.

Speaker B
Yeah. I can’t help but think about the. Almost the risk of more grief of what if it’s not him?

Speaker C
I kind of feel like that’s part of the reason I don’t do it too. I just don’t.

Speaker B
Because then you’re like, then who the fuck is my dad? Like, I have no idea.

Speaker C
Now there’s a possibility of two guys. Both of them.

Speaker B
I know Mamma Mia situation here.

Speaker C
Yeah, there’s a possibility for both of them. And yeah, my ex wife is like, it’s not him, it’s the other guy. And I’m like, don’t tell me that.

Speaker B
Like, this is hilarious.

Speaker C
Yeah, it really is.

Speaker B
It’s like, it’s like the attic version of Mamma Mia. I love it.

Speaker C
I mean, maybe I should find out if it’s the other guy because he owns like a huge cattle ranch and like, yeah, I’d be like one of two children. So.

Speaker B
Justin, that sounds like maybe worth pursuing.

Speaker C
You know, just tell them, Lounge.

Speaker B
We have to be strategic.

Speaker C
You know, sign over half the ranch buddy for back child support and keep the freezer full with cattle.

Speaker B
Oh, my gosh. Wow. Okay, so 17, mom died. You’re in kind of full blown addiction at this point. What happens next in your life?

Speaker C
I just spiraled into criminality and addiction for a few years. Homeless, lost, just burning anything and everything down in life I could. Hurting anybody and everyone in life I could. And as I feel a lot of it was a reaction just to the loss of my mother and the feelings that came from that and the lack of support from my family because to them, she was dead to them as well. Just previous to her passing, she was dead to them. But my family’s very much. You get one, two strikes and then you’re just done. They’ll write you off. And so I think I just had a lot of anger. I was a very, very angry person in my late teens and early 20s. Yeah, I mean, I don’t think I actually felt and understood little aspects of my mother’s passing until I was like 21 almost when I got clean. And at 21 and was clean for a few years, I don’t think I registered everything about it. Like the little things, like my children won’t have a grandmother on my side, just things like that. She won’t be able to witness me have children. She won’t be able to witness me graduate college if I go to college or something like that. So those little things I didn’t see him until I was, you know, 21 years old. And I decided to get clean because I was tired of being homeless. I was tired of nobody wanting me in their life. I was to a point of I either needed to go to prison or I was going to kill myself. And then I just ended up being done and stopped using for a while.

Speaker B
So it sounds like it was just purely like, you were tired of the lifestyle, so nobody, like, you need to get your shit together.

Speaker C
Intervention, like, you know, I had friends who. It was never like, the formal intervention, like, we love you and stuff. It’s just I was hurting and harming everybody around me. And I was realizing that, like, when I would go to someone’s house, like, it was almost like the, you know, the movie situation where they’re looking at you through the window, but, like, people just wouldn’t answer the door anymore or answer their phone or. Or nobody wanted me around. And being homeless in the winter sucks. And I woke up under a bridge to snow, and that was my moment where I was done. It’s like I woke up to icicles and snow and being freezing. And there was another person that was there, and we had a conversation about it where. And he expressed to me, like, you are built for these means to survival, but you are also made to do something better in your life. And so I just got clean. I got clean sleeping in the back of U Hauls and got a job at a Dairy Queen and, like, used to shower in the bathroom of a Dairy Queen and sleep in the back U Hauls until I could afford to go, you know, rent a couch or somewhere from somebody who believed in me enough that I was trying to make change that they’d rent me a couch, you know, for like $150 a month.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
Back when rent was like $800 a month, you know.

Speaker B
Wow. Did you still have contact with your grandparents during that phase? Nope. Okay.

Speaker C
Nope. They wanted nothing to do with me. It wasn’t actually until. I think it was. It was like, close right before 21, when I got clean started or when I shouldn’t say clean. I stopped using hard substances. I still would have beers and smoke pot. And I didn’t get completely until after I was 21. I had my bar phase for a little bit, and I was living renting a room like, three blocks from my childhood home. And one day my grandparents just pulled up on me, had a girlfriend, had a car, kind of had a life going again. And they pulled up on me and I, like, I Thought they were gonna tell me, you know, that my uncle was dead. Cause my uncle was, like, my hero growing up. So they’re gonna tell me my uncle’s dead. Or. I had, like, every thought. I’m like, oh. Then it clicked. I’m like, they’re here to tell me that they know I’m here and to never come around their house. And they pulled up to tell me that they were proud of me.

Speaker B
Oh, wow.

Speaker C
And I was like, mind blown by it. And they’re like, come by the house sometime. Like, you’re allowed back at our house. We would like to sit and talk to you. And so. Okay. So I started doing that. And while there, one day I was getting water, I looked and there was this thing about a cancer diet on the fridge. And my grandma was like, if stuck to the fridge, it had meaning. Like, you know, it was.

Speaker B
Wasn’t there just for fun.

Speaker C
It was. She wasn’t, like, the cheap, free magnet person. And so when I saw this, like, magnet for, like, a. It was a big magnet that was for, like, a cancer diet and for people that have lung cancer. And I was like, hey, what’s this for? And they’re like, that’s part of the reason we reached out to you. My grandpa’s like, mom’s got lung cancer. And I was blown away by it because my grandparents were mean as fuck and not, like, abusive. I mean, later, looking back at it, they were. But not, like, overtly abusive. They were just mean, old, rugged farm folk from, you know, that were war babies. And so I was like. I was kind of taken back by it. And I was like, well, where is it at? And they’re like, well, she’s, you know, getting through it, and it’s in remission, but there’s always a chance it can come back. And we just wanted you to know, and we want if. If something’s to happen to mom, and we want you to be part of our lives when that happens. I was like, all right. Like, I can do that. They just, like, just stay clean. Staff drugs. I want to do that. So I think I can do that. And so, yeah, that was. That’s how that came about. And she later ended up passing from cancer, and. And I. And I had to walk through that. I walked through it clean.

Speaker B
You were so clean when she died.

Speaker C
Yeah, I mean, I was California sober. I was smoking pot, but I wasn’t using any hard substances. And I was doing the harm reduction thing before I knew it was harm reduction. I think it was before it was called that and it worked for me. I got to be present when she passed. I got to really rebuild a relationship with my family that I had harmed altogether. There’s still some tension from my uncles because they didn’t exactly trust that I would maintain staying clean. And my family tried to protect me from parts of it, but I threw myself in the mix to be part of it because I didn’t want to be babied through it and finding out that the reason they wanted me to keep some distance from the death process is because they didn’t want me to relapse. They’d seen how I reacted to my mother and. And in their eyes, if he reacts like that to somebody who harmed him on that level and abandoned him and was never part of his life, what’s he gonna do when the woman who raised him as his mom, like, he’ll kill somebody or kill himself. And I was able to walk through it clean. You know, I was able to give my grandma her dying wishes. She wanted to see me stay clean, and she wanted to watch me get married. And so, you know, I was able. She was able to be there for both those things. So, I mean, I did end up relapsing later after that, but.

Speaker B
Yeah, but those moments are still there. And you honored her in those.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker B
Yeah. So how long did that period of, I guess, California sober last for you?

Speaker C
Probably another year, year and a half.

Speaker B
Okay. And then what happened?

Speaker C
I just decided. I was like, I’m gonna see if meth is still good and odd. My family was like, go, move in with dad. Take care of dad. And I was like, why? Like, I don’t need to live with dad. And they’re like, no, dad. Like, you’re in the will. You’re gonna inherit the house if you’re clean. And so my ex wife and I moved in with my dad, and we all figured they’d been together since they were 13 years old. We figured he’d die. A heartbreak. Yeah, he did not. He, like, became a party animal, and he’s an alcoholic, and he quit drinking when I was a kid, and he was an alcoholic through most of his marriage. And then when I was young, like, 4 years old, my grandma gave him an ultimatum to quit drinking or she was done. And that’s all he’d ever known was her. And so he quit drinking, and. But when she passed, he started drinking again. But he, like, turned into, like, a teenager. Like, he was just hanging out at the bar with his buddies all day long, fishing, you know, unexpected. Grew his hair back out and started, like, styling his hair. And we all just started, like, laughing because I was like, dad’s not gonna die. Like, And I’m like, telling the family, like, six months is up. Like, dad’s thriving. Like, it’s. He’s not dying. He’s thriving. And they’re like, it’s gonna happen. The heartbreak will kick in. Just be there for him. And, like, no, Dad’s just spending money like crazy and buying trucks and boats and, like, you know, partying at the bar all day long.

Speaker B
Like, it’s like his midlife crisis.

Speaker C
But it was his midlife crisis at 73. You know, we just. I laughed the whole time, like, dad’s never dying. Like, I think, you know, if. If the grim reaper is real, like, he is terrified to take him. Cause he is an asshole. And so, I mean, I lived with my dad for a while, and then I just. I went through divorce, and that’s when I relapsed. Like, I just.

Speaker B
Like, the divorce felt like a tipping point, or.

Speaker C
No, I was there. I was gonna eventually relapse on method, regardless if the marriage had worked or not. Like, it was there. I felt it coming. I saw it coming. You know, I think if our marriage had stayed healthy, I probably wouldn’t have. But in the direction it was going, I was going to relapse. It was just the separation and then the divorce. When the separation happened is when I started using. I, like, left to my own devices, I am back then, I was not a healthy person.

Speaker B
Like, just fuck it.

Speaker C
Yeah. I always felt like I needed a handler of sorts. Like, besides getting clean that first time. And it took me years to recognize that I could do it on my own and that I could manage and build a life on my own. And I never looked at that period where I first got clean. I always looked at being in relationships as what kept me clean or having a person to guide me, kept me clean. And very sick behavior of. But, yeah, when she was gone, I was just like, well, get loaded. But I didn’t go down a bad path, like, with it. It was as recreational as Matthews could be.

Speaker B
You were still functioning. Still functioning, which probably kept you stuck a lot longer.

Speaker C
Yeah. Had a job, was doing all the things, and just realized it’s going to go south. I started seeing things happening around me, and I was able to stop it. So I got clean again and California, sober again. But then I met my second wife, my children’s mother, and she was very active in recovery. And so I just. Life changed after that.

Speaker B
Is that when you Got like sober sober?

Speaker C
Yeah, for a little while. And I then went back to smoking pot again. And it worked for me until I relapsed again. And that’s when, you know, really blew life up on a whole different scale. Totally proved that you do pick up where you left off in some manners.

Speaker B
So how old are you at this point where you go back out again when life like really blew up?

Speaker C
In my 30s. I was 32. Yeah, 32.

Speaker B
Okay. So, yeah. What happened?

Speaker C
So my wife and I had gotten a house, started a business. It was my uncle’s house and his old shop. My uncle, who was more like the father figure than my grandfather was because he was younger and he was, wasn’t. He was beat up and everything. And he was this rad outlaw biker that I just adored and admired everything in life. I wanted to be like him. I wanted to walk in his footsteps in every way I could. And. And I found him dead. And we had a close relationship and I ended up finding him dead. He’d been dead for a few days.

Speaker B
What happened?

Speaker C
He had a heart attack. He had a heart issue. I reached out to him. I used to purposely not leave voicemails. Cause it would piss him off. And so he’d call me back and yell at me for not leaving a voicemail. But sometimes if I left a voicemail, it’d be two, three days till he’d call me back. But no matter the situation, if I didn’t leave one, he would call me and just to bitch me out about it. So I didn’t leave a voicemail. He didn’t call me back though. And something was weird. And so I found him. Found him dead. Not a pretty process. A house that’s no air, movement, anything. And had been dead for like, yeah, like three, maybe four days, just dead on his couch. But we ended up getting his house. And my wife was pregnant. My wife, ex wife, children’s mother, is a. She had a lot of medical issues as far as like being a high risk pregnancy. We had multiple miscarriages trying to have our son that we had had multiple miscarriages and trying to have more children and. Cause we just wanted a family. Like we’re both very broken addicts that had found, you know, our soulmate and just wanted to build a family and be able to give them a life that we didn’t have. And we ended up having some major complications. Very, very, very late term pregnancy. And she was put into labor and our daughter was born stillborn. And when, like days before that, everything was perfect. Yeah, Heartbeat, like, everything a person having children wanted to hear at an appointment, we heard.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
I mean, we knew she was gonna be born with a medical condition called Turner syndrome, which, like, mimics a lot of looks of, like, down syndrome and can cause some complications later in life. But, like, we were prepared for that and ready to walk through that journey. And we never had a thought of abortion or anything during it. Like, this is what we wanted, and we were gonna give this child the best life possible and then walk through that of losing our daughter. And where I should have stepped up as a husband. I was in the process of starting a business. So I was working two jobs maintaining a household, which is my uncle’s old house, which needed a lot of work. So I was essentially working three jobs. I was constantly repairing and doing stuff in the household, running an automotive repair shop, and doing full time commercial building maintenance. And I got very lost in my work. We were still clean, but we weren’t working in an active program at recovery. And we weren’t leaning into the support of the people in the recovery community because we just kind of. I don’t want to say isolated. We had friends, like, we barbecued with friends and had friends with children and everything, but we were just kind of living a life away from that. Her oldest son, my stepson, was starting to dabble in going down a path. And we noticed that it would get worse the more he was surrounded by the war stories of addicts and everything. Like, almost like he was idolizing the bikers and the drugs and the guns and the money. Like, he kind of was looking up to it. And he’s explained it to me that way later in life, like, you know, yeah, I just wanted to be like you guys, and I saw you get clean, so I could do it too. So I, like, dove into my work instead of being the husband I should have been. And she ended up having a full hysterectomy and stuff. That just didn’t compute to me in my 30s. Like, I wasn’t mature enough to understand necessarily. Or maybe I was, but I was just so lost that I work when I’m hurting, I work like I lock down into things. And thankfully, I have a healthy outlet in recovery now. So when I’m hurting, I lock down into that more. But then I would just. I wouldn’t say isolate, but I would just immerse myself in things to take my mind off of it. And my children’s mother came to me one day and was like, I’m going to use instead of doing it. Behind my back, she came and told me, which I respect greatly. She was like, I don’t know, eight days short of 13 years clean that time.

Speaker B
Oh, holy shit. Yeah.

Speaker C
And I met her with no, we’ll burn our lives down. And she’s like, no, I’m just gonna use for the weekend. I want to, I can, I’m going to. And. And I was like, no, like, you do that, we’re done. Like I set a boundary around it. And she’s like, okay, well that’s just how that’s gonna be. And I was like, shit, you’re really. Yeah, you’re committed to this. You know, we’re like a decade into our relationship. Like, you’re committed to this. And so then I started asking like the questions. Oh, where are you gonna get it from?

Speaker B
And your interest.

Speaker C
Yeah, well, okay, maybe she can use safely and I’ll let her have this. And where are you gonna get it from? She tells me, I’m like, oh, you’re gonna go get dope from your ex boyfriend, like long term boyfriend. And I was like, well, that’s not gonna happen. I’ll get high with you because then I can protect you from anything happening. Looking back at its control, it’s, it’s, you know, worry, grief, loss. Like I’m looking at all these things like that could happen to me, like how it could hurt me and so I’ll get high with you. The main focus around that though is control. Ultimately codependency. Yeah, codependency is. And she’s like, are you sure? And I’m like, yeah, yeah, it’s just for a weekend. It’ll be fine.

Speaker B
And famous last words.

Speaker C
Yeah, famous last words. So we went and got some dope and got high and I was like, this is wonderful. Like now I can give you what you need and be present as a husband and work these three jobs like.

Speaker B
You know, yeah, perfect.

Speaker C
This is the best of both worlds now. But I’m like an all or nothing drug addict. I started to immediately, I was like, right back into criminality. Owning an automotive repair shop, oddly enough, relapse buddy calls me. No one knows I relapsed. Dude calls me and he’s like, hey, I know you’re on the up and up and everything, but like, I gotta make my car go away. I could make that happen. Have the facility, have the means. What? Just I want X number of dollars for it. It’s no problem. Made that happen. So I’m right back into criminality. And then I tell her, I’m like, this is going to get bad if we don’t stop. I’m scared. And she’s like, I’m not ready to stop. And I’m like, well, we should. And I remember the exact quote I told her. I said, you are playing with fire and you are opening Pandora’s box with me. I said, when I go, I’m going to go and there will be no turning back. She laughed. She’s like, you just think you’re hard. Like you’re not actually as hard as you think you are. And she’s like, I’ve known so many people that are way worse than you. Like you’ve always had this fantasy that you were super criminal. And she’s like, you ain’t shit. But we all joke about it. And she’s like, I remember the night you told me it, I can tell you where you’re standing, everything. And she’s like, and I should have fucking listened. And because from that point on it was just crazy. It’s. I was able to hide it to an extent from a lot. I think people had questions at times. But business stayed good. And the fucked up part was is our relationship got better. Every aspect of our relationship got better and at least what we thought was better. And so for like a year and a half, we’re using and income’s coming in, you know, kids are going to school, thriving in school, business is growing, well known all this. And while behind the scenes, like we’re both using. And then it just turned, got toxic, a lot of domestic violence. She started becoming very violent, which in turn led to me matching that with violence. And then life just spiraled. Lost the house, lost. Short of losing our kids, we lost everything. Weren’t making car payments, cars are getting repoed, bills aren’t getting paid, stuff’s getting shut off, business is falling apart. Nobody wants to take a car to a mechanic who looked like me at that time. I quit my commercial maintenance job and it was cause we were doing that good with the business that I wanted to start. Family wants nothing to do with us. It’s. She’s giving, getting given choices from her family, like leave this guy or we’re done. My family’s just like, we’re done with you and unfortunately done with your children and everything along those lines. So I jokingly tell people I relapsed for a weekend and it just turned into a three and a half year weekend. And I didn’t register to me like all of the damage because I started in and out of jail. All this stuff started Happening.

Speaker B
Were those, like, possession charges? Like, what were you saying?

Speaker C
No. Zero drug charges. It’s all person to person crimes. Everything I have is a person to person crime and all acts of violence. While. I mean, I should probably to this day be in prison still for other things I did during that time. You know, that statute of limitations is up on a lot of them. But I did a lot of heinous crimes that I should have been doing 10 or more years for. And it didn’t register to me until. This is the weird part. Like, I was in and out of jail. None of it was. Nothing was worse working. There was talks of this new thing called COVID 19 that was possibly going to take over the world. And I. I used to always joke, like, something like, we’re on meth. Shit won’t even hit us. Like, yeah, never. Because I never saw a tweaker get Covid. And I was like, we’ll be fine.

Speaker B
We’re invincible.

Speaker C
The world’s gonna die around us, and we’ll be the last people to live. And such meth thinking, oh, yeah, we’re gonna. We’re gonna start this dystopian life of tweakers every mad Max.

Speaker B
My God.

Speaker C
And then sitting in a jail cell, I was like, I burned my life down. Like, I burned down everything around me. But it fueled me to use more. I mean, I’m already here, right?

Speaker B
That’s a vicious cycle of it.

Speaker C
Yeah. And then sentencing came around, and they’re like, you’re going to prison. It’s like, well, I’m not gonna stop. Like, I’m already here. And as a kid, like, I wanted to be like, I was a gang member. I was, you know, I. I was very ha Filled kid. When I say hate filled, it wasn’t like hate as in, like racial hate. Like, my parents were very racist, and I was not allowed to have friends that were people of color. But I was just an angry kid. And that came out through. I ended up, like, hanging around skinheads and stuff when I was a kid. And it gave me a sense of purpose and it gave me a sense of acceptance that I never really had.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
And I always wanted to be, like, super prison gang member. When I was a kid. It was this, like, I wanted to be that guy that was covered from head to toe in tattoos, was just, like, all jacked up coming off of prison. Cause I thought it was cool.

Speaker B
It was like a badge of honor.

Speaker C
Yeah, it was a badge of honor. And then I’m sitting in a jail cell getting sentenced and I’m like, well, this is the start of that journey.

Speaker B
Like, you’re like, fuck yeah, I made it.

Speaker C
Yeah, but I’m not even racist. Like, I don’t hate, but I’m like, well, I can’t. I mean, I’ve already been part of the scene, so I’m gonna be thrust into it or I’m just gonn in the correctional system. So I’m like, oh, I guess I’m a racist Nazi again. Even though I’m like, well, I guess I’ll fake it till I make it again like I did as a kid. And so I entered the correctional system using drugs and going back into seeking that aspect of life. And finally the thing that stopped me and changed me is so my clean date was a couple days ago, August 6, 2020 was my clean date. And I just took five years. The other day I talked to my NA sponsor because during that last little bit, I was trying to get back into Narcotics Anonymous. I was trying to get back into 12 step recovery, saved my life, and nothing was working. But I had a sponsor who watched me relapse and relapse and relapse. And he got it, he understood. And he walked by me through every step of the way, never judged me, supported me. And while incarcerated he told me that if I didn’t change my life when I got out of prison, my son would not be calling me dad and he would be calling my wife’s now new boyfriend dad. And he said, do you want your kid to call you Justin?

Speaker B
Damn.

Speaker C
It wasn’t a prison sentence, it wasn’t divorce paper. None of that changed my life. It was hearing that changed my life because I never wanted to do to my son what was done to me. And I never also knew that I didn’t want my son to grow up without his dad. But I didn’t want my son to ever have to bury me without an answer. I didn’t want him to have to experience what I experienced. And I just was done. And so August 5th, I dumped my dope and decided that I wasn’t going to use again. I’d use that day. So the next day is my clean date, August 6th. And just haven’t looked back since then. I mean, I’ve looked in the rearview mirror. I mean, a couple times, be like, is this no, it’s not a good idea. You know, of course there’s been moments where I’ve thought about turning around. Actually one of them recently, like very recently, the loss of my dog. Yeah, it’s as you know, my Dog was my. My life.

Speaker B
Sage. We love Sage.

Speaker C
That was the first time I thought of relapsing since I’ve gotten clean. And I almost did because I don’t know how to manage pain like that. I run. I’m a runner. I run from it. But in that moment, when I was walking back and I had just been told that my dog was dead in the road. Yeah. And I saw my partner, and I could see that she was just white as a ghost. And she told me that Sage was gone. And I said, I have to go get her. And she told me. She said, you don’t want to see that, and I will do it. My partner is amazing. She wanted to get my dog out of the road for me and wouldn’t let me see it.

Speaker B
Wow. It’s like your grandfather telling you that you don’t want to see your mom.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker B
Playing out in a different way.

Speaker C
And she’s right, because my kid’s mom’s husband, my kid’s stepdad came over, and I was just crying. And I told him, I said, I just want to see her. And he’s like, you don’t want to see that. He said, it’s her, but you don’t want to see her. But I leaned in the fellowship. I leaned into my. The fellowship that I’m a member of, and I. I thank God for those people, because that’s the first time I’ve thought of relapsing. I leaned into my people. I leaned into the literature. I did use the tools I was taught and given, and I saved my ass with it. The tools I learned in treatment to stop and think. I used all of them. And it saved my life. And that’s the hardest I’ve ever grieved in my life, is the loss of my dog. Not my grandmother, not my daughter, not the loss of my dog.

Speaker B
Why do you think it felt different for you?

Speaker C
I’ve. I don’t know. I’ve tried to understand it, why that was so different. And I. I don’t know if it’s. That dog saved my life in a lot of ways. You know, I was clean. I was working in active program or recovery. I had all these tools. I had a great life, but I was empty. I was very broken. I couldn’t maintain healthy relationships with people. I could in the program, but, like, intimate relationships, I could not. It was very guarded and closed off. The healthier the person was, the more I was gonna run from it. I would, like, seek out toxic relationships. Cause I didn’t feel like I Could love someone. And I. And I didn’t feel worthy of accepting love from someone because of the damage I had done to others. I just didn’t feel that I was capable of that. And so when I got Sage, the moment I met that dog, like, she was my best friend.

Speaker B
Yeah. She was your baby.

Speaker C
Yeah. She, like, she saved my life. She showed me I was capable of giving love to someone, was capable of accepting love from someone, even though it’s an animal. I like animals more than I like people. So same.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
She was everything I ever wanted. Yeah. So I think that’s why it hit me harder, because she encompassed everything I wanted, and she showed me how to, like, she was that missing piece that made me whole again, you know? And I think that’s why I really grieved her loss the hardest out of any loss I’ve ever had in my life. I’ve walked over so many people in recovery. People I was close to experienced so much loss and death and recovery sponsees overdosing and dying. Been on hand to administer Narcan and CPR to overdoses of people who didn’t make it. You know, worked in an emergency room hospital setting with people who went back out and relapsed and died or came in seeking help and their bodies just failed and developing relationships, like, very deep, meaningful relationships. As a mentor with people, probably a lot of, at times, counter transference that, like, got to me, that I didn’t recognize. Experienced a lot of loss, clean and walked through it. But that one was, like. That process has been the toughest for me. Thank God for the fellowship and the people and the tools I was given in treatment. Cause I know I’ve always got another relapse in me. I don’t think I have another recovery in me. And I’m glad that I did not go out over that. I’ve got the tools now to manage and to process things and to process grief and loss and things like that on a different level. Grief is weird. It is super weird because people have asked me, like, why I felt that way about my dog and not my grandmother and. And my. My mother or why I didn’t feel that way about other people. And I. I don’t know. It’s just the level of attachment, the love, the.

Speaker B
Yeah. And also I think there’s something too, of people wanting to, like, make sense of things. People want answers in this world for things that, like you said, there’s so few things that we actually, like, know.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker B
And so I think. I think it’s More scary for people to sit in the discomfort of not knowing.

Speaker C
Right.

Speaker B
And, you know, very much going back to where the name of the podcast comes from.

Speaker C
Right.

Speaker B
And like, grief platitudes of, you know, people wanting to say things like, oh, everything happens for a reason is a way of, of trying to dispel their own discomfort and pain versus realizing like, no, sometimes just really fucking shitty things happen and there’s not a reason for it.

Speaker C
It’s so funny you say that because I was a couple days after Sage’s loss. I had just gotten her ashes home. And yeah, I go and pet her urn every day and say the same thing I said to her when I would leave in the mornings and I pet it when I come home and I’ve got little footprints and I just, you know, because she hated her feet being touched. So I always laugh. I’m like, now I can touch your feet and you don’t bite me. My partner just shakes her head because I have to, like, I process through humor in a lot of ways. But that’s something my partner said and she’s like, everything happens for a reason. And I, I snapped at her and I said, nothing happens for a fucking reason.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
And she’s like, no, it does. And I said it was the only argument we got in really ever. Or around that situation because that was like the most turmoil we’ve had in our relationship is my partner is very much just a keep moving person and I have to sit and stuff. We, like, argued over that term. And I wouldn’t even call it an argument. We had a verbal disagreement. Verbal disagreement over that term and the feelings around it. And I don’t understand, like, it. So many questions. Unknown. That broke me during that.

Speaker B
Yeah, of course. Sage.

Speaker C
Yeah. You got to experience like watching that dog lift me up.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Speaker C
And turn me around as a human being.

Speaker B
She meant everything to you.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker B
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’m curious. Like, Justin, so much of your life, as you said at the beginning, has been defined by grief. Like from a very, very young age. And grief has meant something different to you during different phases and physical losses and emotional, mental, spiritual losses. Loss of self. Right within both in addiction.

Speaker C
Biggest ones.

Speaker B
Yeah. With an addiction, but also in recovery. Right. Figuring out who the fuck you are and also making maybe amends for the things that you did in active use. But like, if there was any advice that you would give to your 17 year old self, what would it be like knowing what you know now?

Speaker C
Wow. Been asked a lot of questions in my life and like, it’s one of the most powerful questions I’ve ever been asked. And some people are probably going to hate this response. I would say, you know, hold on, it doesn’t get better, but it gets easier. I have a wall of ashes at home with people I’ve lost. Friends, mother. I don’t have any of my grandpa or my grandma. I have my uncle. I have all of these like memories, like a chain of just loss throughout the years or symbols of people’s death. And it’s never, nothing gets better about it, but it does get easier over time. And I recognize that even looking with Sage, I didn’t think I would make it through. Sage. I’ve never cried in my life so hard. But now like I crack jokes, like I’ll, I grab her ashes and I just occasionally will chase the other dog with it because, you know.

Speaker B
That’S amazing.

Speaker C
You know, it’s, it’s gotten easier. It’s never gotten better. And I think I would tell that to my 17 year old self. I don’t know if my 17 year old self would understand it.

Speaker B
No, but you plant a seed though.

Speaker C
Yeah, I would. Because it has, has gotten easier, you know, and I think about those things all the time. Like what, what would it have been like, what would my daughter’s life be like today? You know, if she was here? Who would I be and where would I be had I not went to prison?

Speaker B
Right.

Speaker C
Would I be where I would be if I had not spiraled out of control and addiction and like, yeah, I wanted to join the military, I wanted to do all these things. Doesn’t get better. It does get easier.

Speaker B
Yeah. And also just really wanting people to hear what you’re saying is. You’re not saying it gets easy. It just gets easier because it becomes like so built into life. It doesn’t mean it’s not fucking painful and devastating and breaks us. It’s just maybe more acknowledgement of like, yeah, this like death is part of life.

Speaker C
It is part of life.

Speaker B
And it’s not to say like, so don’t feel.

Speaker C
No, God, feel it. The worst thing I ever did for myself was not feel.

Speaker B
Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker C
The two worst things I’ve ever done for myself was to not feel or to mask my feelings with substances. Now I have the education that I do, both learned from incarceration and addiction and everything, but also education in this field and understanding psychoeducation. I look back at what I was doing to myself with masking with substances and the not grasping the ramifications of my mother’s passing until I got clean the first time. Makes sense. And I. And I’m able to look at it from an addiction case studies aspect to like real life of it and it’s fucked up.

Speaker B
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C
Feel those feelings. I’m never. I’m never gonna stop feeling those things. But I’ll. The pain, the day in, day out, pain does get easier. It does lessen with a little bit of time.

Speaker B
Yeah. It’s. Yeah.

Speaker C
Not guaranteed. It’s never gonna go away.

Speaker B
No. No. I don’t think so either. Yeah. Well, thanks for your answer. I love that.

Speaker C
Hopefully that was. Hopefully somebody got something out of that.

Speaker B
No, I thought it was beautiful. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you. Thank you so much for sharing me do this.

Speaker C
I know I’m kind of a different animal for a guest than you’re, you know. Yeah.

Speaker B
My first guy. That’s.

Speaker C
That’s about it. Oh, I am the first guy.

Speaker B
You are. Congratulations. But actually, I mean, so many threads of your story that come up in the other people that have already been on too. Right. And that’s the thing about grief being such a shared human experience that we just strangely don’t really talk about is even if the loss is different or again, the, the upbringing or the lived experiences are different. Like there are a lot of threads amongst grief that I think and hope that the more talking about these, like, we get to have people realize maybe they’re not as alone as people feel in their loss.

Speaker C
Grief shouldn’t be such a taboo thing to people. Like. No, it’s fucking weird that it is. It is. It’s fucking weird that it is. Like, I think the world would be a better place if it could just open up more and yeah, yeah, I’ll talk to about it to anybody and share, you know, the experiences of it because those things were freely given to me. Hopefully I can give them to somebody and they can change their life.

Speaker B
Yeah. I’m all for making people uncomfortable if the. If the bigger end game is that we get to lessen some of the taboo nature of it. So I’m glad you’re on board with my mission.

Speaker C
Absolutely.

Speaker B
All right, Justin, thank you so much.

Speaker A
So that’s all for this episode of Nothing Happens for a Reason. If you found value in today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a review. It truly helps our community grow. You can also follow the official Nothing Happens for a Reason Instagram account and sign up for our newsletter to be the first to hear about new episodes, exciting additions to the podcast and special giveaways. And finally, if you know someone who might find solace or understanding here, especially as they navigate grief, please share this podcast with them. I deeply appreciate your support. We’ll be back with a new episode next Thursday.