Parenting in the Trenches: Grief, Neurodiversity, and Finding Grace

Speaker A: Hi, Gail.

Speaker B: Hello.

Speaker A: So glad you’re willing to do this. Actually, not even. I mean willing to do it, but you reached out to me and you encouraged having this conversation, and I don’t want to give too much away, but. Yeah. I really appreciate that you advocated.

Speaker B: Yeah. For.

Speaker A: For this to be out in the world. So I know grief means a lot of things to people. Do you want to introduce yourself?

Speaker B: Yeah. I’m Gail Porter. I am a wife, mom, friend, all the things. A fierce advocate by trade. I work as a substance use counselor and supervisor. So familiar with the world of mental health and the hard conversations and still so much. We often just are hesitant to have them sometimes. And I think that that’s why this is important to me.

Speaker A: Thanks for introducing yourself. So what does this thing called grief mean to you? Or where does your story start?

Speaker B: Man, where does it start? Once upon a time. No, I’m.

Speaker A: Bedtime story.

Speaker B: Yes. I don’t think that there is an ounce of my life that is not at least sprinkled with grief. I come from an upbringing of abuse, neglect, abandonment. My birth parents, you know, they had their own struggles, and that came with not great parenting tactics that often left much to be desired as a kid in that environment. Grew up in not such a great neighborhood. I’m from the Bay Area, so grew up mostly in and out of Oakland and Hayward. And, you know, the loss of friends and all the things. Right. Became an addict and an alcoholic at an early age. And so all the pieces that come with that lifestyle and the loss that we ultimately put ourselves in because of our use. The loss of my birth mother, my daughter was nine months old when she passed away from her disease. Having adopted parents and having that family fall apart even just as early as a month ago. Having friends die from their addictions and their mental health. I mean, there’s not a chapter of my life that doesn’t involve grief in the form of loss of people, identity, habits, self.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the unconventional grief that we don’t talk about around parenting, around having. For me, having kids who are neurodiverse with also medical complications, having multiple kids on the spectrum with other intellectual disorders. And what that looks like, what my day to day life looks like, what. What I go through, what I watch them go through.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I know we’re gonna talk a lot about that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I think I’m curious with. With the sprinkling of grief throughout your entire life, obviously, you know, you have the lens of. Of like an adult Gail, sitting here right now, looking back in that, having that Awareness. But do you remember at what point in your life where you realized that what you’re experiencing was grief? No.

Speaker B: Full disclosure. Embarrassingly so. Not until about four years ago.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I started really getting into my own work and needing to find something to sustain.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: You know, I’d been sober for about 15 years, 14 years at that point. And it wasn’t enough. The AA meetings weren’t hitting. I’m not 100% in alignment with certain aspects of recovery anymore. But I’m also this professional and I’m still sober. But I need something else that’s not just that. And really took me down this spiritual journey. Kind of connected to native culture, my native culture. And just really realizing that not only was there all of this. And that’s what it is. And I’d never taken space to heal it. I just pushed through it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It’s been a wild ride the last three and a half years.

Speaker A: I love hearing that. You know, having so much sober time, which obviously there’s work in that. And you were at one point really part of, like, your recovery program and that aspect of healing and realizing. Right. A lot of these episodes, we talk about he lean, like, ing versus he old. And you had such a big chunk of time where you were sustaining.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then realizing a few years ago, like, there was more to dig into even deeper.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And in some ways, it’s kind of non stop. Like, we can be peeling that back for a long time.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: But it sounds like you got to a point where, like, something else. I need something else now.

Speaker B: Yeah. I. It was impacting the way I was parenting. And that was my biggest. You know, having parents who were in their addictions that were abusive, that were neglectful and not really having any roadmap on how to parent.

Speaker A: Mm.

Speaker B: And then showing up with my kids in ways it was just not okay with me. Was a huge motivating factor. Right. Cause even the healing gale, like, still has to be motivated by something bigger than me because I don’t always want to do it for me still.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. And so that was your tipping point.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Realizing the impact of maybe not being the parent you wanted to be. It sounds like.

Speaker B: Was not gonna repeat. Was not gonna repeat. My children were never, you know, gonna be in a space where they questioned their worth to me and questioned whether or not I had their back or supported them or loved them or never grew up feeling abandoned by me emotionally or physically.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And so once you got to that point of, okay, there’s more that I need to do for myself, but also for my family, for my kids. What did that start of that journey look like?

Speaker B: I ultimately ended up in therapy. Tried my hand at therapy a few times with a couple different therapists, in and out, you know, and it just wasn’t. There was just something that wasn’t catching. My nervous system was still not regulated, mind you. I’m living in a home with a child who has a lot of meltdowns and physical aggression. And so it’s hard to get that anyway.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I ultimately ended up finding a woman who I work with individually now, still to this day. And I. It started off with a like a sound bath. She’s like, come to this event, come participate, See how you feel. We’ll talk about it later. And it was like a cold plunge and a sound bath and it’s just like all these things. And I remember going home and I’d never felt more settled or regulated in my own skin ever.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: I just got chills and it was like, oh, what’s this? Like, where do I get more of that? Like, because life is gonna be hard, but does it really? I got my first taste of, does it? Am I making it harder? And so I continued to go to those events and started working with this woman one on one about two years ago now. Two years ago. And we really dove into. Anybody who knows me knows I’m really nice and personable, but I’m also very. I store a lot of anger, which doesn’t serve me anymore, but I still have to feel it and I still have to hold space for it. And that’s where I started to gather that, like, my 12 step recovery beliefs and systems weren’t quite in alignment with what I needed next. Now, mind you, like, I am 100% all in. Like, if I wouldn’t be where I am today without that start.

Speaker A: Totally. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I will always have a huge love for that program and the stability it gave me for 13, 14 years until I could have enough bravery to do something bigger. And so it opened me up to a lot of things. Started doing a lot of one on one work with her around anger, around childhood things, abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, all of those things. Because what was happening was as my son started struggling more, I was becoming more triggered. So he wasn’t just having a meltdown. And it was because they tell you in his therapies, it’s not about you. Don’t make it personal. You have to become their calm. I’m like, how do I do that? Wow, that sounds so Hard when he’s not an eight year old boy. Right now, he’s my abuser.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I’m in that space. And so I also started practicing tobacco medicine. Like, it’s not addictive. It’s not. There’s nothing about it that’s like contrasts with my recovery and my abstinence. And it’s also a cultural practice.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And what that did, was it in ceremony. It allowed me to like in meditation. Right. We do it with intention. It’s not just. You don’t just go do the thing and be like, okay, live your life. Like, there’s meditation, there’s intention, there’s journaling, there’s all of these pieces. And so what it did was it. It grounded me enough and kind of calmed my nervous system along with all of these other things enough that I could start to unpack.

Speaker A: Was this your first time really leaning into that part of your native culture?

Speaker B: Yes. Right. Because I. So my grandfather was half native, so I’m not like, like all, you know, I’m Spanish, Italian, like all these other things. But I’ve also very much felt connected to that and was never really exposed to it much because my grandfather wasn’t raised in that culture either.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So I did a lot of digging about the tribe that we were from and which is what, the Iroquois tribe.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So. And just like what was important to them and how they celebrated and all of those things that were personal, that in hindsight, like, I always felt connected to stuff that was like that, but never really figured out what that meant for me. I was too busy kind of emotionally circling the drain.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, good metaphor.

Speaker B: And so it’s been really powerful. It’s been really powerful to like, even though this is such a small piece of me, it’s still mine.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker B: You know, it’s not any easier. Nothing’s different. If anything, things continue to become complicated, but I’m different.

Speaker A: What happens now when you feel angry?

Speaker B: I often allow myself to say, okay, you’re angry, but this is not the time. And I still have those moments where I’m like, you know, I want to get real hood on someone real quick, or I want to like react and become reactive instead of. And I think that that’s what’s happened over time is I become less reactive, have more insight into what’s happening. And then, because I also know now I get to go to meditation with or without like tobacco medicine, because it’s not like something I do all the time. Right. I get to go into meditation and I get to meditate. And pray to my ancestors and you know, my guides and say, okay, let’s sort this out here.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Which part of me is affected? Is it 6 year old me that’s feeling abandoned and neglected and not seen and not heard and abused? Or is it 16 year old me who’s ready to fight the world because 8 year old me feels that way?

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So much inner child work. It sounds like you’re doing too. You’re layering in there with the meditations you do.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I have to hold space for her because nobody did. Nobody did.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think that that’s why, regardless of what’s happening, like it’s so important to me through my process to hold space for my kids, regardless of what the consequences are in my relationships with other people.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And so with again, this lifetime sprinkling of grief, when you’re looking at parenting and having kiddos who it sounds like multiple of your kids. Neurodivergent.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: How does it feel different for you than other grief you’ve experienced?

Speaker B: I want to be present because it’s not just mine.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I think the hardest part of this journey is when everything gets calmed down. You know, when the meltdown, because we only have one child who has severe meltdowns and self harm and all of the things. He also has some intellectual disabilities and so there’s a lack of understanding. And so when that happens, in the moment he. Afterward there’s this deep just in his little face, like sorrow and shame and frustration with himself. And like you could just. His eyes say everything. It’s just like, what did I just do? And I remember having moments in my life because of my addiction, which started at, at 12, where I was like, what did I just do?

Speaker A: Or what did.

Speaker B: What did I just do? Even though it was something that somebody did to me.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, owning other people’s abusive behavior often. And so to be able to sit, what, how I feel different is like I. It’s important to me to sit with him in that, in the aftermath, like.

Speaker A: In the moments where you see the shame on his face that you’re saying, yeah. What do you say to him?

Speaker B: It’s not necessarily anything I say as much as, you know, I’ve taken to. My favorite phrase is like, no matter what’s happening, no matter what contention we have together, you know, I love you, sweet boy. He needs to know that somebody sees him beyond what’s happening.

Speaker A: It’s like that corrective experience, like you said, because it’s not like you were very seen in your upbringing.

Speaker B: No. And it’s still dismissed. Right. Because I have this other family now that was theoretically part of. My adoptive parents are my biological mom’s brother and his wife, who also helped, kind of were part of my childhood experience.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker B: There’S an element with one of my adopted siblings and maybe even my parents, I don’t know, of a lack of understanding of exactly what I’ve experienced and how it impacts how I show up.

Speaker A: Yeah. What’s that been like?

Speaker B: It’s been hard because it’s. You know, I don’t want to. There’s a part of me that’s. I’m not big on making excuses for my shitty behavior anymore. So I’m constantly looking at, okay, what’s my part? But it’s been difficult to say, okay, you know, yes, I made some choices that I see could have upset them. But at the end of the day, there is still just a huge lack of understanding about my experiences and how I. Why I am the way I am. And it’s not like I don’t love you and I don’t give a crap about you. It’s like I am still figuring out how to not be in survival mode. And this is not about attention or making things bigger or. Or being dramatic. This. This is just who I am. Right.

Speaker A: And I’m. I’m guessing I’m making an assumption. But what you’re kind of touching in on of that part of your family, that there is a lack of understanding. My guess is it also is like a microcosm of the society that we live in, too.

Speaker B: 100%.

Speaker A: They’re representing like, the bigger cultural experience of people not understanding.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What it’s like to be in your shoes. And also, I mean, your whole family.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: At least your immediate family and raising the kids that you. You do have.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. There is a huge lack of understanding. And I think that that’s why it’s so important to me. You know, I’ve always been somebody who felt motivated to speak out about things, you know, when people. But there’s just this huge epidemic of lack of compassion and awareness and understanding for what parents of kids with extra needs go through.

Speaker A: If you had to name, I don’t know if you. Anything comes to mind, but, like, top of the list, number one thing that people misunderstand about it. What do you think it is.

Speaker B: That we’re disengaged because we don’t care. Most of us are in survival mode. Most of us are exhausted. Most of us are hurting. You know, it’s a special kind of hell to watch your kids struggle that way and not be able to fix it.

Speaker A: I was gonna say. And having like no control. None over it.

Speaker B: I have no say over his experience.

Speaker A: You know, and the like quote, normal things that help in moments where people who are not neurodivergent. Yeah, those things don’t work.

Speaker B: No, they don’t. In the same way, the timeouts. That’s funny.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay, cool. Counting to three. I’m glad that works for you. But not here, you know, And I think that just the exhaustion this, the emotional, physical exhaustion of the whole experience, you know, we have one child who is immensely more impacted than the rest of our children. And I mean we’re talking days where it’s just this up and down. Like we get 20 minute increments where he’s able to regulate and then we’re right back where we were dropped right back into just this emotional dysregulation of.

Speaker A: All the things like what does a normal day look like for you and your family? And again, normal is probably not the right word.

Speaker B: I preface that by saying everything is a fight. And what I mean by that is like you get your. Most people get their kids up and it’s like there’s a little bickering about getting out of bed and brushing your teeth and eating. And you know, most people’s kids want to eat when they wake up. My child, one of the many struggles we have is like that he doesn’t eat well. He’s got sensory issues, food aversions. All the things that contribute to him. Not for a while there he wasn’t gaining weight, he wasn’t any of those things. So the medical complexities, you know, a normal day involves usually my husband being aware that somebody is moving about in our house around 2am because he sleeps for about three or four hours a night. That’s it. And so I mean, and this isn’t, this has been a thing. I mean this boy, bless his heart, when he was born, he slept in like 20 minute increments every hour on the hour until he was like six months old. So we, there was a knowing that like what’s going on here? Even at a young age, he usually goes back to bed by the time everybody’s up and moving, right? And in summer it’s fine. But like during school time, right, like we gotta get him up, we gotta get him ready. Getting him in the bath is difficult. Getting him just clean everyday stuff. Brushing his hair is a fight. Brushing his teeth is a fight. Getting him to Eat something is a fight. And then he’s very regimented. He’s very like, everything is on a time pattern. Like, do not deviate from the plan. And the plan needs to be the same as it was yesterday. And any deviation from that is an automatic just kind of dysregulation. And so anytime we deviate from the plan, anytime there’s a day off from school, anytime one of his workers has a day off, you know, because our life also revolves around support from care workers, you know, and we’ve been really fortunate. We have two people that help out every day and it’s that come into.

Speaker A: The home or just come into the.

Speaker B: Home and he goes there for one of them and he enjoys that. That’s part of his routine. And so it’s, you know, it’s the screaming, the yelling. Corrective. Anytime you correct for safety, it’s just an automatic escalation. I would say at least twice a day we’re dealing with, like, where he’s just on the floor screaming and yelling and hitting himself and biting himself and like throwing his new pattern of behavior. It’s like, let’s throw my. My already very brittle bones because I’m not eating enough. Let’s throw every orifice of my body into a wall and see what happens, right? So now we’re dealing with the consequences of like just bruising. And you know, it’s. You just never know and it. And you never know what’s going to set them off. You know, anything from like, you got the wrong syrup or we have this favorite snack this week, right? And I put it. And it gets put in a cup and the cup didn’t get filled to the line. It normally gets filled because we ran out. So now, like, you know, there’s a lot of like 10 o’ clock at night, grocery store runs.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Because it’s. It’s that we. We figure it out or it become. We’ll be up all night. You’ll be up all night.

Speaker A: Yeah. Exhausting.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: It sounds. So I’m just listening to you and like also looking at the other kids and you and your husband, like, you, you work full time. Like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You do other things and I. It’s just incredible that you do all of that. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It’s just so much.

Speaker B: We have been fortunate, which is not always the case for a lot of families where we have really incredible workers that feel good about working with him and we have friends that he’s connected to who have other kids who are on the spectrum that, that Connection happens. We’re also very fortunate that he very much thrives, which is not what they told us would happen, but he is very. He loves school. He. Absolutely. He just loves to be around. Loves to challenge himself to do what the other kids are doing. And so that’s been a great. A great outlet for Matt and I. I think of just, like, at least we have this respite.

Speaker A: At least totally.

Speaker B: At least September through, you know, June sometime. He’s got this consistent thing he’s doing, mind you, anytime there’s breaks or days off or he’s sick. That’s. The other thing is, like, this is. He can’t always tell us when he’s sick. So a lot of times we end up in situations where he’s, like, really sick before we realize he’s really sick. He had an. An ear infection a couple years ago, and he. It was so bad by the time we got him to the doctor that it. Doctor’s just like, how did you not know? And I’m just like. He doesn’t talk. Like, he doesn’t. He. That boy has a lot of grit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: His pain threshold is higher than most.

Speaker A: I’m also just thinking, like, how unhelpful for the doctor to be. Like, how did you not know? Like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like a good example of adding what I can imagine. I’m sure there’s also moments of, like, parent shame.

Speaker B: Oh.

Speaker A: That you and Matt deal with. So to have a medical provider.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, add to that when you’re like, yeah.

Speaker B: And it’s. The parent shame is a big thing, you know, because my husband is, like, much stronger than I am. So he’s the parent that, like, when we’re in the middle of the park and we gotta leave because he’s being not safe, and he’s gotta pick the kid up while he’s screaming and yelling, and people are just like, is this kid being kidnapped? Like, what’s wrong with your kid? What do you. What are you doing wrong as a parent?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That your child is acting that way. And it’s just like, there’s a lot of. You’d be surprised. How do you.

Speaker A: How do you cope with that?

Speaker B: I don’t know.

Speaker A: Do you think you just got to a point where, like, you just try to not care what other people think of you or.

Speaker B: Some of it is that. Some of it is an understanding of the reality that people are not. I think I’ve come to a place of acceptance where people. I know that people are just not. They don’t care to a lot of People don’t care to know why. And we live in a world right now that is just so chaotic that nobody is seeing outside of their own experiences.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and so I. And I’ve come to a place where I think I’ve just reached a place where it’s like, I know what we’re doing. I. I know, you know, because my husband is also doing his own spiritual journey that’s helped him kind of lean into this as well. And so I think it’s. We have just gotten to a place where it’s just like, people are going to be people. Like, there’s nothing I can’t change. How much of an. That lady over there is going to be because she thinks she’s a better mom than me. Like, just. There’s no. You know, and it’s my favorite saying is, like, there’s a saying going around or, like, people make time for the things they. That are important to them. So if they’re not making time for you, you’re not important. And I’m like, that’s a really broad statement.

Speaker A: So black and white. Like, so black and white.

Speaker B: Now I have people running around in my life thinking they’re not important to me because I’m not doing the things that they need me to do. And I’m just like, okay, all right.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I can’t control what you’re gonna think. But, yeah, no, those are not the mantras that we need in this world at this point. Because, again, yeah, it gives. Does not give a lot of room for the gray.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Of like, somebody’s individual lived experience in those moments. Are there people that that mantra probably is true for? Absolutely. But also like, oh, that’s so frustrating.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think therapy helps, too.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Growing up as someone who didn’t always have a voice or didn’t have a safe place to say things, being able to have. You know, I have a couple women in my life who are really great listeners. I call them my hype people because it’s just like, every time I go to do something or I’m having a challenge or somebody’s showing up in a really shitty way, they’re just like. They’re on it. Like, they’re my. They’re my crew. They’re like the people that are just like, no, you’re amazing. Like, go do the thing and fuck them, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. We need people like that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think. And I think that that’s what breaks my heart about all of this, is, like, if I was going through all of this. And I didn’t have, you know, my people, if I didn’t have these two women and their kids and their partners or husbands, and I didn’t have these workers, these people who are. Who are essentially family at this point.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Man.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right.

Speaker B: And. And there are people who don’t have that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: There are a lot of people who are not getting.

Speaker A: It’s hard to even fathom it. Yeah.

Speaker B: I certainly would not be doing all the things, you know, I wouldn’t have space to come do stuff like this or, you know, I would be getting my masters or. Or working or I would just be helping so much.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Are these women you’re talking about, are they also women who have kids who are neurodivergent, that you’ve connected over that?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Okay. How did you meet community for yourself?

Speaker B: So one of them is her. I knew her brother and her mom first.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Her mom was one of my recovery people in the Bay Area. And then I met her brother through the mom who lived up here.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And him and I were just like two peas in a pod. And then for years, he used to say, you guys need to meet.

Speaker A: You guys need to meet.

Speaker B: And we were just so off in our. Trying to manage our kids. Right. And then finally, we just connected. And I think one of the best parts about my relationship with her is, like, it’s just so effortless. Like, if we don’t call, if we go weeks without, like, texting or checking in, which we try not to, but it happens. It’s okay.

Speaker A: It’s okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, it’s okay. Like, I love your face. And I’m here. You know where I am, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And my other girlfriend, she and I became friends through. She is the partner of one of my husband’s best friends. And so she came into the picture about four or five years ago, and it was just kind of an instant, hey, I see you, like. And we spent a lot of time doing family stuff together. And it’s easy. It’s easy. I’m gonna go to their house, or they’re gonna come to my house, and her daughter’s gonna stim, and my son’s gonna throw a fit, and it’ll be fine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it’s no judgment again. It’s. You know, it’s an easy relationship. It’s just like, I have her back, she has mine. I show up for her, she shows up for me. And it’s both that way in both relationships. Like, I don’t feel alone in this world.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think something that you just said is something that I found for myself and in my own grief of realizing the people in my life that you don’t like, take things personal like that at this phase of my life and grief and trauma and all these things, like, I don’t really have time and energy for people in my life who are gonna be offended by me, not like having. Whether the emotional or physical ability. Right. And I’m not saying, like, I. Being a good friend is a value of mine. And I know it is for you too. And like, they’re. Everyone that’s in my life knows, like, I’m actually a really bad text or one of my friends is like, for a millennial, I’m surprised how bad you are. I’ve just really am bad at texting. And anyone that’s going to be upset with me because I don’t get back to them right away. I’m just like. It’s just a lot. I don’t. Yeah, I don’t need that. And the people that I choose to keep my life are ones that, of course we want to stay connected and we try hard. And you have your life, I have my life, and I’m not going to, like, judge you for it.

Speaker B: It’s not personal.

Speaker A: It’s not personal.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It’s so, so important, I think, for everyone to find even if just one person in community that can understand and hold space for that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It’s just give some, like, relief of all the other pressures of the world, like, not having to worry about that person and how I need to be present all the time.

Speaker B: Because it’s not a requirement.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Like, if I could see your face this week, that would be great. And if we can’t, it’s okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: And to not have. You know, I think one of the most important things is, like, when I can’t. When I say I can’t or something comes up or I’m just not okay. Like, it’s not an instant questioning of my motives and my integrity as a human being. And I think that that’s the part that’s the hardest. The grief that comes. Like, it’s a. A secondary grief to my kids stuff. It’s like the minute I can’t show up the way somebody needs me to, it’s like, I don’t know if it’s the society we live in or just the. My family or the people I know. I don’t know what it is, but, like, it’s this instant assault on your character, and I’m just like, hold On a minute.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Could I have managed this different. A hundred percent. I can own that. Sure. I can own that. It hurts your feelings. And I had something to do with that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Whether it was in my control or not. And also, I am not this person.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. People who just want us to fit into their idea of, like, life or friends versus, like, maybe what we have the capacity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. I’m so glad that you have a couple friends who get it. Maybe on a different level. Have you ever done, like, support groups too? Or like, have you been part of the community of other parents who.

Speaker B: It is ironically, for how common having children with neurodiversity and other complexities is. There are very few resources. And so in my mind, I’m like, I need to create. I need to make a profit. I need to create a support group. I’ve got a list of things that I need to do to help fix that and fill that gap. Right. And also, like, when.

Speaker A: Yeah, when.

Speaker B: So it’s. Ideally, there’s some. Athena has gone to some groups of siblings. Cause that’s the other piece of this. Right. Is like, you have siblings that are. Have their own neurodiversities.

Speaker A: That was my next question that I had.

Speaker B: But are deeply impacted by what happens in the home sometimes and how we repair that with them after that. So it’s not just a repair with this child and managing this child right now, I have to like, manage and repair and make sure that these other children are getting what they need because they have. They’re part of this.

Speaker A: They are. Yeah. Right. I mean, that’s the hard thing too, right. When there’s like a higher needs or just like identified needs within the family. And some families, it’s. It’s a parent, Right. Or sibling or grandparent. Right. That needs, like, actually does need more. And yeah. Like you’re saying the grief maybe I can imagine for you and for your husband, but also. Yeah. For the other kids being in that system. And that feels probably.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Devastating in some ways.

Speaker B: I liken it to how I felt when I wasn’t seen or. Or my needs weren’t being considered.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because there are times where it’s like mid meltdown when it’s a safety issue. I’m sorry that you had a rough day at school, but we got to talk about that later, you know, and you know, dealing with the mental health stuff that comes along with. For the other kids that happens as a result of. And you know, I’ve even had people say, well, why did you have so Many kids. First of all, we didn’t know that our middle son was not diagnosed until our daughter was about four or five.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And then our youngest son was like a. Hello. This was. I was 38 when our youngest was born. I was not a spring chicken.

Speaker A: The geriatric pregnancy.

Speaker B: I still hate that word.

Speaker A: I know.

Speaker B: I remember.

Speaker A: I think you were the first person I ever knew that you were like, If I. You’re 35 and over, it’s geriatric. And I was like, that’s fucked up.

Speaker B: I mean, I’m not even in menopause and not geriatric. Attached to my heart. Cool.

Speaker A: That’s great.

Speaker B: So it. It’s very much. No, it was not our intention to have this many children.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I. I honestly, at a point in my life before I met my husband, was just convinced that I was just not. I had had a child at 16 and was like that. Parenting is not. People who get raised like me and who do what I do don’t need children. You don’t need to make the world harder. Right. And then I got sober and I met my husband and was like, maybe I do. I want his children.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I don’t want to be a mom just to be a mom. I want to be a mom with him. And we have an older son, so that comes into all of this. All of it. And it just. It really. Did we plan on having this many children? No, I think we planned on two, and it ended up being four. So it’s fine. And what’s it to you? Like, yes, it’s hard, and. Yes. But we’re managing. We’re figuring it out. And maybe it’s not the way other people think it should look, and maybe we’re not showing up the way other people think we should. And it’s really shitty when people react to that. And it’s hard as a. A counselor and a mental health provider to not know the additive of, like, everybody gets to feel the way they feel because I’m sure this impacts them. Right. I often use my training to dismiss my own feelings.

Speaker A: I was about to say. I was like, I don’t know if I agree with that thought process, Gayle.

Speaker B: I will use my. But what? I’ve been in this industry now for 10 years, and I will often use everything I have learned, which is much. To dismiss my own experience.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think that being in this field before I had my own spiritual journey was probably, like, kind of what kept me in that. For me, I can’t speak for everybody else, but it really, it took this, like, pivotal moment with my son where I was just like. I had to take space because I was raging, and I was like, I’m gonna show up in a way that is not okay if I don’t take space.

Speaker A: How do you see your other kids coping with all of this?

Speaker B: Oh, our oldest son is finding his way. You know, he’s figuring. He’s an adult, so he’s figuring out his life. Our oldest. I call him a gentle giant. Cause he’s had his own struggles, and his own things come up, and he’s really learned to find some compassion for his brother and understanding. Because there was a while there when he was, like, a teenager where he was just like, I don’t understand what’s going on. Why does he do this? And I’m like, bro, once upon a time, he was you. But he has come into his own. And, you know, he. I’m not his birth mother, but I’ve been a part of his life since he was about 5. And so he’s really. He’s grown into just a very empathetic, compassionate human being who’s doing his own work. Our daughter, our child. Our first. Our firstborn together. They are currently in therapy. I think one of the biggest complexities of all of this was watching. Oh, this breaks my heart. We had gotten so focused on trying to take care of this other child and their needs that we missed so many signs.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That something was going on with them. The anxiety increased. School was becoming a struggle. Isolation was happening. And then one day we woke up, and they were ready to take their own life at 10. That’s heartbreaking. For real. Mm. And I had this moment where I was like, what did I do? Like, I them up. I fucked up. Like, all this work to be sober and do all the right things, and I fucked up. Now what? And so, you know, we. It took us about a year and a half to two years almost to find them a therapist that they really could connect. And so they have that now, and they’re doing better. They’re figuring it out. But there’s also now more intentional time. There’s a lot more autonomy. Because they’re gonna be 13, so there’s some autonomy mixed in there. Like, what do you want? Every time they have a therapy appointment, it’s like, who do you want to take you this week? It’s been really nice for my mom heart for them to be like, can you take me? Can. Can we go do the thing? Can we? You know, because I don’t want to Take advantage of the fact that kids are resilient. But also that’s a awfully big expectation. Yeah, yeah, Right.

Speaker A: I think so often, right. The origin actually of this idea that kids are resilient was this, like, push to minimize childhood experiences and trauma. And like, kids don’t actually need therapy. They don’t need these things because they’re resilient. Right. And I think it’s. It’s the both and right. Our kids and humans in general are, quote, resilient. And we still have so many needs. Kids still have needs. Right. And we know a lot will fuck us up in childhood too. Right? And so someone be like, well, you’re resilient. You’re like, okay, you.

Speaker B: Thanks. Thanks for that. Yeah, yeah. And our youngest, he’s actually in the thick of his journey. He was diagnosed with ASD at such a young age, but is also a Covid kid. Right. So his only peer example was his brother who had all these challenges. So, you know, we’re kind of in the thick of like, is it ADHD or is it autism? Like, what. What are we dealing with here? But he’s very much my son. Very much a hothead. Very much a, like, hey, he’s a joy to be around, but he is very sensitive. He’s my sensitive boy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And he very much is the, you know, the psychological evaluated child who does negative things for attention. And so we’re actually in the thick of working with a behavior specialist to try to, like, how do we curb this?

Speaker A: How old is he now?

Speaker B: He’s just turned seven.

Speaker A: Seven. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And he is. And he’s just such a life of. He’s a go, go, go kid. Like, I remember being that way when I was younger of like, what are we doing today? What are we getting into? Like, do we. How we, how. What moves are we making today? Like, where are we going? Who we seeing? You know, and he’s definitely like my kid in that regard of like, he’s so. Him and I in a lot of ways butt heads more because we’re so similar. We’re so similar.

Speaker A: That’s hard to see.

Speaker B: Like, man, you’re being a jerk. And also. Yes, I see you got that from me. Yeah. And it’s just the, the dance of, of all of it. And then, you know, it’s the heartbreak of nobody sees this, nobody sees this day in, day out grind, you know, and then you add, you know, the state of the world and the reality that, like, through certain changes and policies, somebody’s now decided that depending on how they feel about my son. On any given day, they can choose to take him out of our home and put him somewhere else.

Speaker A: Yeah. I. I was curious about, like, the political ramifications of the world that you live in and.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The kid. Your kids, and what they struggle with of, like, what’s going on in the world right now is probably a whole other layer.

Speaker B: It’s scary.

Speaker A: It’s scary.

Speaker B: Terrifying to the degree that, like, full disclosure, I spent some time when I was spiraling out about it a little a couple weeks ago, like, how do we say what we need to say honestly, to get. Continue to get the services we need without putting such a spotlight on how bad it really is?

Speaker A: Yeah. I hate that that’s the world that.

Speaker B: We live in, because over my dead body.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right.

Speaker B: And then it’s like. And it’s. But it’s not just. And then it’s like this fear of, like, okay, well, what happens if something happens to us? Then what?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Who’s. Who’s gonna protect him?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Who’s gonna protect them?

Speaker A: Right. And I can imagine, too, the other layers of this of, like, misinformation coming out medically that then puts misinformation and blame on parents, which then, like, adds a whole other layer of stigma.

Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. Which is just, like, it’s created another. Another, like, layer of us in them, in our society, which. We didn’t need more of that.

Speaker A: No, no. I know. We’ve kind of touched on different parts of this. And again, just bringing it back to, like, you and your grief within all of this, because I know that other friends and clients that I’ve worked with who have raised, especially kids who have neurodivergence, but, like, kind of on the more extreme side of things, more acutely, just the grief of, like, on one hand, like, of course, like, I love that child or my children so deeply.

Speaker B: Like.

Speaker A: And maybe this isn’t the life that I imagined or the loss that you have of things that you will not experience, maybe, as a parent or with that child and how, like, deeply painful that is too.

Speaker B: It’s a huge part, and for a long time, it was a huge source of shame for me. Like, what mother feels that way about their kid?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I think now I’m just. It doesn’t diminish my love.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Doesn’t diminish my willingness, Willingness to sacrifice or my willingness to lay to bed certain relationships so that they don’t feel left behind, but it does. It. It. I remember I had really bad postpartum psychosis with or 10 year old. And I remember just kind of finally coming back into my body and starting to have a parenting experience with him. And so I missed all of these signs in the beginning that something was different. And his preschool teacher was like, I really think that you need to seek some professional support. And I said, okay. And I remember sitting in that room knowing that he was different, but I don’t know that I was ready for hearing the severity level that he was being diagnosed at for hearing that based on the signs that he showed in the evaluation that they felt comfortable saying that he may never go to school like a regular kid. There may come a point where he won’t be able to live in our home. He will likely never function on his own in society. Toileting independently is probably off the table. Hygiene independently is definitely off the table. There was just all of these. It was just like this Rolodex of things. And I was just like. I remember thinking. And I. I cried for days. Not because he had the diagnosis, but because my internal response to that was, this is not what I signed up for.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, when they said, congratulations, you’re having a boy, this was not what this was supposed to be. I was not supposed to be raising a kid in a war zone. Who was the war zone? You know, they say that, like, parents who raise kids on the spectrum with severe complexities have the same level of PTSD that, like, vets who come back from war have. And I’m just like, yeah. Yeah. And I just. I felt so much guilt and shame as his mom for being angry.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And looking at it, like, from outside here and, like, sitting out here. It makes so much sense, though. It makes so much sense. Especially talking about difficulties of your upbringing and what you’re describing. Right. As being in, like, constant fight or flight and working so hard for the life that at that point, you’d created and found a healthy relationship and found sobriety and found, like, holistic healing that you’d never had before.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then getting that news. Yeah, I can imagine. Was just devastating. And. Yeah, again, it’s not the either or of it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But you lost so much in that meeting.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You lost a version of you in the future and your son. You lost dreams, goals, aspirations that I’m sure you had.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s such a important part of talking about what your family has been through in that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because we don’t talk about it because we get told, you know, or when we try to. This is Why I love the name of your podcast so much. Nothing happens for a reason is because if I. I hit a wall a couple years ago where I got so tired of people telling me it’s why God chose you. First of all, I don’t believe in God. I’m not a, like, a man in the sky kind of belief system kind of girl, you know? Yeah. I believe there’s a higher power. I like all of those things. I have religious trauma on top of a lot of other things.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I was just like, if one more person tells me that I was picked for this by God because Z knew I could handle it, I’m gonna lose my.

Speaker A: Yeah. It was all God’s plan for you, Gail. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I remember, like, I lost a lot of friends that year because every time somebody said that to me or posted it on Facebook, I addressed it, and I was like, I don’t believe that.

Speaker A: Actually. Yeah.

Speaker B: I believe I’m doing the best I can with what I have, but this is. This was not the divine plan for me.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: And, you know, the. The beautiful part in it without minimizing the shitty part, is that, like, there were a handful of people that stepped up. Like, you know what? I never even thought about it that way. Like.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But the majority of people were just, like, either got really standoffish because they’re religious or got upset that I was upset.

Speaker A: It’s ridiculous.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so unhelpful.

Speaker B: Yeah. It’s not. It’s really not. Like, I am just trying to, like, sleep more than three hours a night and battle depression and anxiety and make sure there’s food on the table at night. And I don’t need that. Thank you. Yeah, I’m good. And that’s part of where the loneliness comes in, is I think a lot of parents with kids like ours, they would much rather be alone. We get to a place where it’s just like, I would much rather figure this out alone than keep dealing with people’s expectations and the hurtful shit they do and say because of set expectations.

Speaker A: Totally. I think that’s that very common thread for grief experiences. Right. Like this specific grief for you and my grief. Right. Are so different on the surface and. Right. Like, the loneliness of whether it is a choice in grief because people just don’t understand and we’re tired of people saying these fucking platitudes that make us want to suck them. I don’t know. Or just because no one understands. No one gets it. Also, a part that we didn’t talk about But a few of my other episodes is a common theme coming up of, like. Of people around us just wanting to be okay and then reinforcing it by saying things like, oh, you’re so strong. You’re doing so well. But in the moments of, like, compartmentalizing and putting a face on and then feeling like we have to be those people, and so all of that combined, it just reinforces. Yeah. Like, might as well. Yeah. Just stay over here. I’ll have my grief feelings to myself, because it’s easier than the shit over.

Speaker B: Here that’s happening and then not talk about it and go develop a substance use disorder or depression or anxiety or suicidality. I mean.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The number of parents that I come in contact to, because I’ve kind of become like, the. The. I have friends who are like, oh, I know this person, and their. Their kid has just been diagnosed, and they are spinning out. Can you talk to them? And I’m like, of course I can, because. Yeah, of course I can. I don’t love being the voice and the. The spokes. I’m not the spokesperson for parental autism, but I get it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it’s really important to me that people don’t feel alone.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And so that.

Speaker A: Finding your balance in that, though, who.

Speaker B: That’s. I’m still working on that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Still working on that. Because I want to help everybody.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I want. Not necessarily to make people okay, but, like, just know that, like, I am. I’m in this with you. I can’t fix it. I can’t change it for you. I can’t make you not suicidal today, but I can let you know that, like, there were days I felt that way. Yeah. And this is what I did to get through it. And sometimes it was just about sitting in it.

Speaker A: Yeah. It’s like the societal ripple effect, though, again, of grief as the broad term, and all the different types of grief not being talked about, of when we feel like we find people that get it or can hold it or we know that person over here that’s like, the designated person.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, we do want to help and lean into it because we don’t want them to feel alone. And, like, what are our boundaries within that? And maybe not being that to all the people or knowing what my capacity is in any given moment. And so that’s why we need things like my podcast for me, your future foundation, for you, you know, to have more support. That’s not just, like, on. On me as being the token grief person and, you know, like, y.

Speaker B: Yes. I like that. The token grief. That’s exactly what it feels like.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so it’s. Yeah. Please ask for help. And like, there might be days where I just don’t have it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For my own well being.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that’s the other piece of it too. That feels lonely and isolating. Is the minute you say I don’t have it today, how people react to that is absolutely astonishing to me. Like, it’s that and that I do a lot of work with my clients in. In the setting I work in, where it’s just like, okay, you want grace with this? Are you giving other people grace with that? Well, no. Why would I do that? I need this. And it’s just like, okay, so you can’t expect people to give you something that you’re not willing to give other people. Sometimes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And there’s just that, like, that. It’s almost like this built in, like you were saying, this capacity to think that, like, we’re the designated person and because. Because we figured it out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or figuring out how to manage.

Speaker A: I’m still breathing. I don’t know.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I’m not. I haven’t thrown it all away today.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That somehow we have the answers. And thus, somehow we can just. You. We are like this person that you can just keep on.

Speaker A: Endless cup.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Endless cup.

Speaker B: Here.

Speaker A: It goes back to, at least for me, of the. The company I choose to keep in my life, too. Of like, I have had many, many friends who, like, reach out to me, whether they have an unexpected loss or, you know, a parent’s diagnosed with cancer or a friend of theirs. And I would say almost every person that I choose to keep in my circle that over the years have reached out. There’s a level of, like, acknowledgement or an out of, like, I know you walk away and you don’t have the capacity for this right now. Like, I get it. I understand. And that’s how I show up with people too. Like, when I’m reaching for my support that I need. I’ve moved into. I don’t take anything per. Even like my best friend. I’m like, if you don’t have time for me, like, I get it. You have so much in your life too. And it’s not anyone else’s responsibility.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: To be my one support or the one person. Like, I need to have my own inner resources.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: In those moments, I know that somebody might not always be able to be there. And again, I have the people coming to me that just also know. And I feel so comfortable in those Moments being like, yeah, not today. Or like, it’s hard, hard week that I’m having. But like, yep, I’ll loop back around when I have more capacity. And I’ve. I don’t feel the like, oh, then you’re a bad friend. It’s just. But again, I’ve spent very intentional, like 10 years curating my community of people 100% for those reasons.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And so I, I just know that I know it’s possible. And if people are listening to this and are like, shit, I don’t have that type of, like, it takes us doing our own work. It takes us knowing our own boundaries, being able to communicate those boundaries compassionately with understanding. Like, that’s the work I’ve been doing that has resulted in who I have in my life now, which I want to trade for anything.

Speaker B: Facts. Yes.

Speaker A: It just has taken time.

Speaker B: Yeah. My kid’s godmother, she starts or ends every text with like, and if you can’t, that’s okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: And it’s, it’s usually. It’s so funny because it’s usually always text messages about, like, let’s get together so the kids can come play and you can just be. But if you don’t have space for that, that’s okay. Hey, I want to take the kids school shopping, but if you. You let me know when that’s going to work for you. Like these. You said it really beautifully. And it made me think, like, the cultivation of these few relationships that I have, because they are, they’re few, you know, a couple really good girlfriends and their partners and my kid’s godmother. And those are the people we keep close. And it’s really. It’s life changing when you meet people who handle you with the same care that you would handle them.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I’m actually, I’m thinking about. And this is something I probably didn’t have words for before I experienced it and someone giving me the gift of showing up that way for me. And actually one of our old mutual co workers, Darryl, I’ll name him.

Speaker B: I love that man. When.

Speaker A: When my mom was. I think it was in the dying process, but definitely after she died, like, he legitimately texted me every single day. I don’t even know for how long. And I don’t know if he said it every single text, but definitely the first one and would remind me in there of like, I am not looking for a response for you. I’m just letting you know I’m thinking of you. I don’t. I didn’t respond to him one fucking time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And him giving me that permission of, like, you don’t need to do. Because at that point, like, I’m such a people pleaser. And like, yeah, I need to respond and make. Putting the pressure on myself to do that. And him being like, you do not need to do this. And again, I didn’t.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it crossed my mind every once in a while, like, did he mean that? Am I a shitty friend? I haven’t responded to him. But, like, just choosing to believe him that, like, he’s not looking for me, from me, for anything meant the world to me. And that’s something, again, that I probably didn’t realize until I experience it how meaningful that was. And that’s something that I practice and I tell people and I talk about on the podcast of, like, especially in the midst of, like, deep, acute grief and trauma, like, don’t. If you are reaching out for a response.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Then you have the wrong intentions about it.

Speaker B: Like, 100.

Speaker A: If it’s just, I just want to let you know I am here, period. Do not actually don’t respond.

Speaker B: Like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: How incredibly impactful that it was for me. And I know for other people, too. And again, it sounds like you have people in your life that have done that for you. And if people are listening to this right now and they have judgment of, like, oh, my God, Claire didn’t respond, or Gail didn’t respond, like, either you have not experienced something hard enough or maybe time to do some work too. Because what is my intention behind this?

Speaker B: Why am I expecting. What. Where is the expectation.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Of people who have. I feel like, you know, I’ve known you for a while, and I feel like, you know, over the years, I watch you, like, it’s very clear where you stand. Like, I don’t feel like I ever question. I’ve ever questioned. Really.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Where you stood. And I’m not that way. So it’s like, you know, people know where I stand. People know where you stand. And I think it’s. If you’re asking for the expectation when I’m very clearly, like, I don’t have it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, because that’s the hard part about the grief, specifically for having children with special needs. And everything that it pulls up and tears up is like, it’s not always this one event that you’re trying to. It’s a low humor in the background and then followed by a series of continuous events that you never really get to come down from until the next one.

Speaker A: Yeah. Sounds like you have to be incredibly like hypervigilant at all times.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that’s where the therapy has come in. Well, because it’s like as a person who was already hypervigilant, like, what it did was it. It really just forced me to get into a space where I had to do the work because it was like, you can’t be. There’s no, like, okay, Hyper vigilance level one and hyper vigilance. You know what I mean? So it’s like once you’re hyper vigilant and then you also now are more. It’s like there’s this tipping place that happens and it’s like something changes or you blow everything up.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Wow. Okay. As we’re wrapping up.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: This might be kind of a cliche question, but I just think for this episode, like, I feel like it’s a two part question. Let me see if I can figure all the words out. So I guess the question is like, what advice would you give to a parent maybe who is experiencing something similar to you? So whether it’s a recent diagnosis.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: Or what? Just. Do you want people to know about parenting neurodivergent kiddos and what do you wish the world knew more of?

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so first part. Yeah. What advice would I give? You are a human being, not a robot.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you wake up every day and you’re doing the best you can and that is enough.

Speaker A: That’s a nice affirmation.

Speaker B: Regardless of what people think, it is enough. And you’re going to get up tomorrow and you’re going to do the best you can and that’s going to be enough. And most days you’re not gonna feel okay. And that’s okay too.

Speaker A: Yeah. That’s beautiful.

Speaker B: In terms of the second half of the question, what would I want people to know?

Speaker A: Yeah. A.

Speaker B: We’re not robots.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And we are given whether it’s emotional, mental health, physical, medical complexities, neurodiversity, any parent with a child with added needs. We are not robots. And our Inability to multitask 247 is not personal. And if you feel like it’s personal and you so choose to be an asshole about it, I’ll say it. That’s a you problem.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Not a them problem. And also, give us some grace. Give us some grace. Just because we can’t doesn’t mean we don’t care. I can’t speak for every parent, but I can say from my perspective of having been abandoned and neglected and abused, what I will not do is abandon my child for anyone or any event or anything in the middle of a crisis. And I implore you to understand, implore people to understand that it is not a reflection of how we feel about you. It is a reflection of us trying to parent our children in their pain. And it has nothing to do with you.

Speaker A: I’m beautiful. Yeah. I think the. The last thing I want to just loop back around to, and you said this at the beginning of the episode, and I really just want to, like, hammer it in for the end. You. You said something that really stuck out to me was, you know, like, life. Life is hard. And also looking at what I’m doing, that’s making it harder. And I think that so much of your work, Gail, and what you’ve talked about is like, yeah. Not just what’s, you know, what’s mine within this. And. Yeah. Just being able to kind of let go of control of what other people are doing. Saying, not doing, not saying. But it’s true. I think so much of our pain sometimes gets exacerbated because we do make things harder for ourselves. And so for you to be able to be, like, realize and get to the point of. Yeah. There are definitely things outside of my control, most of the things outside of my control that are happening right now, but I do have things that I can do that will not make it harder. Yeah. And as I said. Right. You wanting to dig deeper past your work in recovery and therapy and, you know, the tobacco ceremonies and things like that, of saying these are things that I can do. Is it time and effort away from your already very busy life? Yes. And in the long run, is it going to make my life easier? Easier again, like not easy easier, not harder.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That I’m going to do them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so I think there’s such empowerment in your story, too, of this is your life.

Speaker B: Yeah. You can’t.

Speaker A: You can’t change it. You know, control over so many parts of it and what is mine to look at. You are going to benefit from that outlook on life. Your family, as your kiddos are all of that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I just really appreciate you coming on today and sharing parts of your story, which are also your kids story and being willing to talk about this because. Yeah. That’s not talked about. And again, thank you for being the voice of reaching out and saying this is not talked about enough. And there’s so much grief in this. Let’s talk about it.

Speaker B: I appreciate you saying yes.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Of course. Of course. Thank you so much. Gail.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: So that’s all for this episode of Nothing Happens for a Reason. If you found value in today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a review. It truly helps our community grow. You can also follow the official Nothing Happens for a Reason Instagram account and sign up for our newsletter to be the first to hear about new episodes, exciting additions to the podcast, and special giveaways. And finally, if you know someone who might find solace or understanding here, especially as they navigate grief, please share this podcast with them. I deeply appreciate your support. We’ll be back with a new episode next Thursday.