When Pregnancy Ends: Miscarriage, Infertility, and the Grief of Losing Baby Ori

Speaker A

My body still thinks I’m pregnant. The cruelty of that. For days after the procedure, I continued to feel you. When I doubt myself and the future. I hear you.

Speaker B

It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay.

Speaker A

You repeat it over and over. Because we’re tied together forever. And you know me. You know I doubt.

Speaker C

Welcome back. It’s October, and for so many, this month carries a deeply personal weight. October is nationally recognized as Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, as well as a time to recognize the struggles of infertility. These topics, the quiet heartbreaks, the whispered hopes, the cycles of grief and perseverance that impact millions, yet often remain invisible. One in four pregnancies end in miscarriage. This experience is tragically common, and yet society has told us, don’t talk about it. Don’t grieve the loss. Almost as if it’s because it is so common. It is not worthy of the deep pain that follows. But death in itself is common. So why do we compare losses? Today, we’re pulling this essential conversation out of the shadows. We are talking about infertility and miscarriage and the tremendous emotional toll these battles take. We’re specifically discussing the concept of comparative suffering in these losses. The feeling as if the grief is not big enough to deserve acknowledgment. We need spaces for women to be reminded that miscarriages can be part of the universal human experience as well as an intensely personal trauma. And the truth is, both can be true. So today, we want you to feel seen. This is a space built for validation, honesty, and recognizing that grief doesn’t require a reason to exist. I am so honored to be joined by a truly incredible human Today. My guest, Abby, is here to openly share about her own challenging journey. The moments of questioning, the moments of loss, the physical and emotional exhaustion of treatment, and the ways she deeply cares about normalizing this painful experience that so many women endure through her writing. This conversation is vital. It’s vulnerable, and it is a reminder to anyone listening right now, your struggle is real. Your pain is seen, and you are absolutely not alone. Let’s dive into my conversation with Abby. This is nothing happens for a reason.

Speaker A

Hi, Abby. Hi, Claire. Thanks for having me.

Speaker D

Of course. Thank you so much for being willing to come on today. I’ll let you introduce yourself. And then it sounds like maybe we have something to read.

Speaker A

Yeah. I’m Abby. I am a mom in Austin, and my husband and I recently experienced a miscarriage. We. Before we had our first baby, we experienced infertility. I have pcos, which is A very common condition. And so we were thankfully able to get pregnant with our first daughter, Nellie. And what we’ll be discussing today is our experience getting pregnant a second time, but that pregnancy ended in miscarriage.

Speaker D

And just for people who don’t actually know, can you explain a little bit about what PCOS is?

Speaker A

Yeah, it’s polycystic ovarian syndrome. I believe it affects between 1 in 5 and 1 in 10, but it’s the main cause of infertility for women aged, like, 25 to 35, I would say. My doctor says that the condition kind of like, resolves itself in your older 30s, but basically your ovaries don’t release the eggs every month, so they create cysts in your ovaries. And it. Yeah, it can cause infertility for different reasons. Either the egg’s not releasing when it should be, or those cysts are causing other issues.

Speaker D

Okay, okay. And at what point were you diagnosed with it?

Speaker A

I was. Yeah, I was technically diagnosed when we started trying for our first baby, and that was when I was around 31. I was not diagnosed before that, probably because I was on birth control. And that also suppresses the symptoms of pcos. So once I came off of birth control, my hormones were, like, all wacky, which can happen to anyone, whether you have PCOS or not. And then, yeah, once my body realized it wasn’t on that birth control, those symptoms were really showing up. And, you know, they can do an ultrasound and show you your ovaries are two times as big as they should be. Sometimes women can have ovaries that are, like, really large, like five times as large as they should be. Yeah.

Speaker D

Okay. So, yeah, it wasn’t clear because you’re on birth control until you came off with. With the hopes of starting a family at that point. And that’s when that found out. Okay. Got it.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker D

Thanks for explaining that for people. Well, why don’t we hear your reading and then we’ll get into the rest of it.

Speaker A

Sounds good. These are a few excerpts from a piece that I wrote on Substack called what yout Feel like. What yout Felt like, and I’ll just jump right in. I am so sad. Your data is so sad. It’s too much. It’s a time warp, a portal we can’t escape. On the drive to the appointment, we discussed hand me downs and what pink clothes would mean to a little boy if you were to be a little boy. On the drive back, there was nothing left to discuss, only tears. There’s our lives here and Our hearts there with you. Spiritually, you exist and you always will. In my darkest moments, I want to be there with you and only with you. I still must eat because Nelly is watching and because I’m hungry, my body still thinks I’m pregnant. The cruelty of that. Nelly laughs about her Cheerio victory at dinner time and I can’t help but smile at her grin. But it turns to a pained cry because every other second it’s just you, you, you on my mind.

Speaker B

It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay.

Speaker A

There are times when it feels okay. Messages from you, I hope. But they’re fleeting and I have to keep convincing myself they’re not made up. By my own doing, I felt this different kind of presence for the first time right before I was wheeled in for surgery.

Speaker B

It’s okay.

Speaker A

It will all be okay. It washed over me too quickly, like a warm breeze on a blazing hot day, leaving me wishing for more but knowing it wouldn’t come on. Commanding. For days after the procedure, I continued to feel you. When I doubt myself and the future. I hear you.

Speaker B

It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay.

Speaker A

You repeat it over and over because we’re tied together forever. And you know me. You know I doubt a month later. In the mornings, it sometimes feels too much to bear to get up. I know I have to for Nell and for Dada. But still lying horizontally when I hear them in the kitchen. Nelly babbling away about her dreams the previous night. I feel your presence. It’s just you and me and the void. If I wish it hard enough, will you come back? I miss you. I miss you. I miss you.

Speaker B

It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay.

Speaker A

Except it’s not, baby Ori. Because you are not here with me and with us, where you feel so meant to be. I hear when loved ones tell me it wasn’t meant to be. Only God knows why the baby stopped growing. I understand their efforts and soothing, but it doesn’t settle me. It doesn’t feel right. I’m your mama and I deserve to know you more than I do. We were growing together, you and me, for nine and a half weeks. Everything is so measured. Yet my love for you, my connection to you can’t be. You feel farther away now, like your spirit has had time to transition fully to the other side. And it feels so lonely here without you. The messages from you have slowed down. In my most anxious moments, I worry, Is that a sign? Will we get pregnant again? What if we can’t we are supposed to be a family of four. I don’t just catch the clock at 11:11 anymore. I have to be intentional about keeping my eye on the minute hand until it arrives. I see you. I see you everywhere and it hurts. In the new babies we pass on neighborhood walks, their tiny bodies nestled against their parents chests in Nelly’s baby photos, in outgrown toys and clothes now carefully stored away, waiting for a purpose that feels painfully uncertain. In the cement of our driveway where we etched a smiley face as part of our family, believing you’d one day see it. In what seems like every film or show I watch each pregnant pregnancy storyline or tragedy involving a little one reopening wounds barely healed in the foods I used to crave with you, hot cocoa, milkshakes and chickpeas in the tender notes of Nelly’s lullabies At bedtime when I must sing for one, Even though the melodies are meant for two Mornings and nights are the hardest at night after work and when bath time is done and bedtime stories for your older sister have been read, there’s nothing left to think about but you. Who would you have become? Would your smile resemble your sisters? What might your laugh sound like? How would you play together? What would your interests be? What wouldn’t you like? What songs would I sing while rocking you to sleep for so long? All of these questions would be coupled by your comforting spiritual presence. Then one day you weren’t there. An emptiness I could feel down to my bones. And then out of nowhere you reappear when I’m putting more of Nellie’s outgrown clothes in storage or watching her flip through videos of herself on my phone even while opening hospital bills that shouldn’t exist, dated between February 28 and April 2. With the pang of deep longing I feel you.

Speaker B

It’s okay.

Speaker A

It’s okay.

Speaker B

It’s okay.

Speaker A

Wow.

Speaker D

So beautiful, Abby.

Speaker A

Thank you.

Speaker D

Thank you so much for sharing that.

Speaker A

Of course. Yeah.

Speaker D

What do you think? Kind of called you to writing your experience?

Speaker A

Probably just feeling like that was the best outlet to let my feelings out. I love writing. I definitely think it’s the clearest way I can express myself. I’m someone who definitely takes time to process things and can’t always respond in the moment. And in the first, you know, in the first couple of weeks after our miscarriage, I was feeling very much that way. Like I just couldn’t. I didn’t have words for the experience. I was just deep in that, you know, the saddest place. And yeah, I just felt like, it would be good for me to get it out and sort of release some of those feelings.

Speaker D

Like, it’s something that has been therapeutic for you, and so it’s kind of an organic way to process for you with this.

Speaker A

Yeah, for sure. I have loved writing throughout my life. I kind of stopped writing in, like, more of a formal way like that, like on a substack or blog since Nellie was born. But we have always kept, like, little notes about Nellie, about her birth, about things she’s doing. And so it also felt right as well to write about Baby Ori, which we named our miscarried baby. It felt right to have something written about them as well. I think it was more important for me to name the baby. I know Alex, my husband, he was very into the idea. I brought it up to him. And we don’t know if they were a boy or girl. I have my feelings on it. My husband has his feelings on it. We. We think that they were opposite genders. I think that the baby was a boy. Alex thinks that it was probably a girl. And so I knew that when I named them, I wanted the name to be gender neutral so that we could continue thinking of them as we wanted to, separately and together. I wanted their name to have meaning. Felt like a strong urge to look into Hebrew names. I’m Jewish, and I would. I wouldn’t say I’m like a practicing Jew, but, like, culturally, I feel a part of the Jewish community. And I feel connected to my uncle, who’s was very much connected to the Jewish community. I reached out to him to ask what, if anything, people do in. In their grief around, like, death or miscarriage. And he said, Jewish people don’t really. They. They don’t really have any way of, like, honoring a miscarriage. He said that the focus is. Is to remain on, like, life and living and doing mitzvahs, to which are, like, good deeds to make the world a better place for those that are still living. And while in the moment that felt, I was just like. It didn’t feel right. I was like, there. I can’t believe there’s not a way to honor this in our religion and culture. And I just kept searching for things to do. And so my husband and I decided to, like, just have our own little ritual around it. And I pored over, like, all of the naming books and all over Google, searching for the right name. Ori means light, which I felt was. It felt right to me just because of spiritually, like, what I was still feeling with Ori and from Ori, that they were kind of like helping me along and guiding me after the miscarriage and telling me that things would be okay, which, which felt important to honor them with. And so we chose Ori. We decided on Ori and took their last ultrasound and then buried that under like a new tree that we had planted. It was a good tribute, this new oak tree in our front yard. And yeah, it was really nice. Like I found prayer turned song by a Jewish singer and we played that while we, while we buried Maury’s ultrasound.

Speaker D

Wow, sounds really special.

Speaker A

Yeah, it was, it felt special. And, and there were like moments during it where it just felt very ordinary as two. Very much just normal life, but that we were making this like special ritual around it. I don’t know, there were, there were surreal moments during it, but I’m, I’m glad we did it.

Speaker D

Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything that you say to yourself or you feel when you walk by your oak tree?

Speaker A

Yeah, I mean I definitely look at it and think of Ori and Nellie, although she doesn’t. I, you know, she picked up on, she certainly picked up on my emotions around the miscarriage. She didn’t know why I was upset. But although she doesn’t understand everything that happened, when we do pass the tree, I say say hi Ori. And she says hi Ori. And yeah, I think that’s special.

Speaker D

Really special. Wow. Wow, thanks for sharing that.

Speaker A

Mm.

Speaker D

Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being willing to share it.

Speaker A

Of course.

Speaker D

Yeah.

Speaker A

Thank you.

Speaker D

I think really shares a very vulnerable and unique perspective about what you were going through. Like you said in that moment and then month later, which in grief. Right. We know a month is a nothing. Yeah, a month definitely a drop in the bucket. And so to hear that what your progression was in even a few, few weeks, yeah, it’s really powerful. Any specific line in there that you just read us? Is there one that’s more powerful for you or like the most powerful in there?

Speaker A

I think one of the ones that hits me hard still is we were driving and yeah, on the drive to the appointment we discussed hand me downs and what pink clothes would mean to a little boy. On the drive back, there was nothing left to discuss, only tears. Yeah, that one to me is still hits my heart like it brings me back to that moment because it is such a, such a weird thing in life. Like one moment your life is before you and your future is before you, how you’re imagining it and then the next second, like split seconds, your life changes and yeah, there’s nothing you can do to change it back.

Speaker D

Yeah. Yeah. It makes me think so often about that kind of grief and trauma perspective about. A lot of people describe losses of pre loss versus post loss. And for a lot of us, it feels like such a stark difference from one moment to the next. And it very much sounds like that car ride is a dividing factor for you.

Speaker A

Definitely. Yeah.

Speaker D

One line that really, I mean, again, all of it was. Was so beautiful. One that I felt like very visceral response and body chills was the line of that your, your body still thinks that you’re pregnant.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker D

What a. What a. I don’t know exactly the words, but like, what a cruelty of that. The cruelty of that. Yeah. Knowing what you knew in that moment and then your body hadn’t quite caught up with it yet.

Speaker A

Yeah, that was really hard for me. And I think that is one of the differences. I’m sure we’ll talk more about this, but one of the differences between a mother going through or a person carrying their baby going through that and then the partner, the partner’s view of it is just very different. Like that’s something that only the person carrying can really feel. I took that so hard. We found out about it at our nine and a half week appointment. But they can measure, they measure the baby, which is like one way they know if everything’s on track or not. And they could tell that the baby didn’t grow past like eight weeks and a couple days. So I had actually miscarried like a week prior and didn’t know. Like I was, you know, I was going around like, so excited for our upcoming appointment to check genetics and, and find the gender of the baby and they were already gone. And I, I took that really hard. Probably the hardest part for me because I didn’t. I just felt like I wish I could have known to like savor my last moments. Yeah. With that baby. Yeah.

Speaker D

Is there any narratives that you tell yourself about that of like, that you didn’t know that last week and a half? Like, is that something that is part of your grief process?

Speaker A

I mean, during that time, you know, you definitely as a mom, you’re always like blaming yourself for something. And yeah, as a mom, you just feel like, oh, I, I should have known. Like, how is, how is there no way that I’m didn’t know? So I think that’s, that’s the hardest part about it is you just have a lot of guilt around that.

Speaker D

Yeah. I think that’s why I was curious because I know that like the guilt and shame and self blame is, is so common for women and, and miscarriages and infertility and so, yeah, I can imagine that as maybe illogical as it is to feel like, yeah, I should have known I’m the mother and not knowing something was going on in my body. Right. And it’s just more ways that women unfortunately move into, I think, blame again about this process.

Speaker A

Definitely, definitely. And I know miscarriage can, it can happen at different stages. So some women find out on their own, which would be just as devastating. I don’t know. I don’t know how I would experience that. You know, you would start bleeding and very scary in a different way. I think on my end, because we found out at the doctor’s office, there was part of me that was like either bargaining or just like still hopeful. I guess I wasn’t sure if I should have done the dnc, which is when they remove the tissue and the miscarried baby, because they just want to make sure that all of it is coming out and that you’re healthy to get pregnant again. I wasn’t sure if I should actually go through with that. You can, you can like wait for your body to do it on its own or for your body to try and do it on its own. Sometimes if you choose that route, you still have to go in for a procedure to get some remaining cleaned out. But I also just, it was a very quick thing that they, they move from telling you about the miscarriage to the best thing they tell you. The best thing in this case is to go ahead with the dnc because it could take your body another three weeks to realize that you’re not nourishing another living thing anymore.

Speaker D

And how long after you do you do that?

Speaker A

I went in the next day, the next morning.

Speaker D

Okay. The cascade of just kind of all at one time.

Speaker A

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker D

How do they prepare you for that?

Speaker A

They give you paperwork, they, they give you like some details about what it will entail. No real discussion about like the cost, although your mind’s not really there yet. Yeah, I mean, my doctor just said this is the best thing so that, so that your body can, can re regulate its hormones.

Speaker D

I’m having so many questions, but why don’t, why don’t we go backwards for a second and let us know a little bit about getting to the point of being in the doctor’s office that day.

Speaker A

So backing all the way up to, like when I found out about pcos and, and trying to, I, I wasn’t super surprised by the fact that I had PCOS and I was doing all of the things that. That they tell you to do. I holistically in Western Med. So I was going to acupuncture. I was going to a functional medicine doctor where they, like, test your muscle and supplement you, supplement your body based on what your muscle tells them. I have no idea how they do it, but made me feel better that I was doing that as well. And then on the Western side, we were trying naturally for a while. It wasn’t happening. I was like, tracking everything with the apps, all of my hormones and my basal body temperature, and it wasn’t happening. So we went in and they put me on a medication called Femara. It helps you ovulate at the right time. It stimulates your follicles, and that’s what they put many women PCOS on. And we tried again for a few months. Nothing was happening. My husband at that point went and got everything checked out just to make sure things were working on his end. And then they brought us in to discuss iui, which is intrauterine insemination. So they. It’s not ivf. They actually inseminate you, like, at the doctor’s office. And so that was. I would describe that as a little bit traumatic for both my husband and me. The first time we did was a little bit painful. They said that that could have been the reason we were having trouble. Like, my. Something wasn’t open as much as it should be. So when they. When they did the procedure in office, it, I guess, opened that more and then that we were upset when that didn’t work out. The first time we tried it, we ended up doing it two more times before we got pregnant. On the third time we went in, they were kind of preparing us for, like, if this doesn’t work, we will, you know, start exploring other things they can do, like a surgery to check on the function of everything else. They can flush your tubes. And then after they do those surgeries, they usually recommend ivf. So we were kind of preparing for, like, yeah, having to do that. We were preparing financially to go down that road and in. You know, during all of this, it’s really hard on a relationship. My husband really just didn’t want to be doing any of that. He really just wanted to keep trying naturally. And. Yeah, so we just had different feelings on it. I was worried about both of our age and making sure that we gave it our best shot to have a baby. And thankfully, he buckled in with me and we did the process together. But, yeah, the doctors kind of treat it like it’s something that is just fact. Like, they’ll tell you. They’ll have you take the femara, and then they’ll tell you to come in for the insemination. You’ll go in and then they’ll tell you, okay, great. Now go home and have sex like, three or four more times.

Speaker D

Oh, my gosh.

Speaker A

Yeah. And it’s like, well, it doesn’t work like that. Not on command.

Speaker D

And.

Speaker C

Yeah.

Speaker A

Especially when stress is high. And. And yeah. So thankfully, that last one was very upsetting relationship wise. Like, we were not in a good place. But thankfully we did get pregnant on that last iui and the pregnancy was amazing. Like, of course, there are small pregnancy complaints for everyone. But everything went really well. I was anxious. I’m an anxious person in general. I was anxious for every appointment. Hearing the heartbeat was the best thing that could happen at every appointment. And then Nellie’s birth was a little bit crazy. She came quickly, too quickly for the doctor to be there. So we. It was just my husband and me and the nurse who was on duty. But she was healthy and everything was. Everything was perfect. We had some breastfeeding issues because of PCOS that can also affect how much milk you can produce for your baby. So we did that. We breastfed and then we also supplemented with formula. But she’s two now, and we just thought that it would take a while to get pregnant again. We kind of put ourselves back two years ago or, you know, almost three years ago, thinking what it took, and we imagined that it would be the same this time. And amazingly, we got pregnant, like, on our second try. And it felt so exciting, like, for many reasons, we were just, like, not really expecting it that soon. We looked at each other like, wow, we’re. We’re going right back into it, into the infancy stages and everything.

Speaker D

But did you do IUI again for.

Speaker A

We had. We didn’t have to. We. Okay. Yeah. We conceived naturally, which you can hear from others. Happens, like, when you’re not trying so hard. A lot of people say, like, it can happen the second time much easier. Or sometimes you hear stories about, like, people going the adoption route and then once they adopt, they get pregnant naturally.

Speaker D

Yeah.

Speaker A

So we were really excited. And those two and a half months were just, like, very. They were almost, like, dreamy. Like, we were just so excited. And we told. We told my parents and his parents, and we were about to tell his siblings when we found out. We wanted to make sure the genetic testing came back okay. And that’s when we found out about the miscarriage.

Speaker D

So I actually have some, I guess, questions about your perspective of this now that you’ve been through infertility and experienced a devastating miscarriage. And, you know, I know I hear, especially in American culture, this idea of, like, waiting to tell people until. Right. Like, the pregnancy is viable. And like, I get logically, the reason that I think that’s so common is because if there is something that goes wrong or a miscarriage, then you don’t have to tell everybody about that. But then I also am so curious because the other side of this, and as you know, a big part of this podcast is really talking about, like, our grief avoidant culture. And it just brings up some questions for me of is the right. Because if you don’t tell people and you’re waiting and then something does go wrong, like, you’re alone in it. Like, you don’t have maybe the people to support you. And so just. It’s always felt kind of like a paradox to me. And obviously I’m not here to say one’s right or wrong. It’s just. It’s just kind of interesting to me because then you’re maybe walking around with this big. You use the word void in your writing, this, like, big grief void. And people around you maybe don’t know because, again, we’re in a society that conditions us to not talk about it. I mean, all grief, but especially something so common as miscarriages. And yeah, we don’t tell people until a certain point in the pregnancy. So I’m just curious what your thoughts are about that.

Speaker A

Yeah, yeah, it’s so true. They, the doctors usually tell you wait until 12 weeks. That’s when the chance of miscarriage drastically drops. And then it just keeps dropping as the weeks go on. But, yeah, my perspective has definitely changed. I would say we, we told our parents pretty quickly. He felt confident in telling our parents very early, and we, we wanted to hold off to tell his siblings. So when we found out and we had to tell them, you know, you still have to tell them. You still have to tell family, like, what’s going on with you? So, because they didn’t know that we had gotten pregnant, it was kind of like all of this information on them at once. Like, well, we were pregnant, but we miscarried. And. And then they don’t really know what to say. So it, I think it kind of strips people, the people you have relationships with of the time to, like, kind of have their own feelings about it and figure out how to be Most helpful to you. At the same time, I feel like with miscarriage specifically and with earlier miscarriage, so, like, ours happened in eight weeks. People don’t always know what to say. I know that’s true for. For a lot of. A lot of reasons, a lot of grief. But I think miscarriage specifically has this kind of idea around it in society where people might want to brush it under the rug and say, like, it. You know, you can try again. It’s fine. Like, it’ll be okay. You’ve gotten pregnant before. And I think a lot of people might not view it as such a loss. You know, even I had previous to having the miscarriage and previous to being pregnant or becoming a mom, I questioned, like, when you feel such a connection to the baby, like, as a mom and as the mom who carried two babies, I know that I feel that connection very quickly. And in the loss of our second baby, I did feel, like, very isolated in those feelings. Like, I just felt like no one got it. Not. Yeah, not our parents, no one. Like, only my husband and I and it. And it felt like I wanted to talk about it, but it felt like I would be doing, like, a disservice by talking about it to other people. Like, I would be making them uncomfortable by talking about it. Yes.

Speaker D

Sitting here right now, like, what do you make of that perspective?

Speaker A

I don’t know. I mean, other than the fact that if they knew that they would feel. They would feel upset. Like, they would feel bad. That that’s how I felt and that’s how I. That’s how I still feel, I think.

Speaker D

Yeah.

Speaker A

I just think it’s so unfortunate that society makes us feel that way. I don’t know. I just think it’s not. It’s not a common thing to talk about any grief. And it is so unfortunate because it is so isolating. It makes you miss out on just opportunities to connect in a deeper way.

Speaker D

Was any sort of resource suggested to you, whether in the medical setting or from people in your life?

Speaker A

Yeah. So my husband and I go to couples therapy, and she is an amazing resource to us. She told specifically me about going to, like, a support group, and she offered suggestions for that. Like, she gave me the names of some support groups nearby. I looked into them. I did think that would be helpful. The reason I didn’t end up going is because they were all for mothers of miscarriage and stillbirth. And I just felt like. I just, like, couldn’t believe that they were combining those two. I was like, I can’t. I Can’t be sitting next to someone who went through this, but held their baby, birthed their baby, and then had to say goodbye. Like, I can’t. I just couldn’t imagine comparing the two. And I. I knew there was no comparison. And still now I just can’t imagine discussing my miscarriage at eight weeks with someone who birthed. Who birthed a stillborn baby.

Speaker D

I think such a common experience with different losses. And I’m sure I talk about this in other episodes too, but it’s that idea of comparative suffering and how normal it is for us to fall into comparative suffering while also knowing the other side of, like, how harmful it can be for us to fall into it. Right. Because when we fall into comparative suffering, we’re. Yeah, we’re. We’re comparing, in these cases, losses. And it’s not that the other side of the coin of comparative suffering is, oh, all of our losses are exactly the same. I think it’s really important in a strength of yours, Abby, that you can hold space, that losses are different and in no way. Right. Are you saying, like, my experience is the same as somebody, a mother who had a stillbirth? And what happens when we do comparative suffering is we’re minimizing our experience. Maybe we don’t get support that we potentially need because we’re putting ourselves in this box of, oh, it wasn’t as bad, or my suffering maybe isn’t as worthy of being held, being seen. So I just wanted to name that, too. And, like, I totally understand that you were like, this is probably not the right support group for me. Like, that’s okay, too.

Speaker A

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker D

And so were you. Were you already in couples therapy when this happened?

Speaker A

Yeah, we started couples therapy, honestly, even before the infertility stuff. The reason we kept going with it, we’ve, like, taken breaks from it and gone back to the same therapist. But the reason we’ve been with her probably for, like, three years now is because of the infertility and. Yeah. Just helping us communicate during that time. And she was amazing. Or she has been amazing during this time. During this loss as well.

Speaker D

Yeah. I guess I was curious because, I mean. Yes. So wonderful that you were already connected with support in that and of course, with a therapist who. I’m so glad to hear that she recommended other, like, specialty things for you, like support groups and things like that. Were you offered any support in, like, the medical setting? Like, did the medical providers recommend support groups? Did they make sure you had a therapist? Like, was any of that discussed? No, not at all.

Speaker A

And Like a hundred percent not surprised by that. Right. Like, I was not expecting them to offer that. Yeah, I would. It’s funny, I was just at the doctor two days ago because we are, we are considering like going the IUI route again. And the last time I was there was when they told me and my husband about the miscarriage and then the next day for the surgery. But it just felt so shitty being there again. Like, it was just. I just don’t want to be here again. I don’t want to be like at this same place that we were three years ago and especially not after knowing what miscarriage is like. But I think a lot of the feelings that came up were because of how it was treated in the moment of telling us and the next day with surgery and everything. I have so much love for my OB gyn. He’s very sweet and has great bedside manner. Overall, I would say I don’t think, I think, yeah, I’m not, I don’t think it’s possible to deliver that news in a way where someone’s like, yeah, that was, that was a great delivery of it. I think it will always, it will always hit hard when the doctor says the words. But I just felt on that day more than I ever had before. They are in the baby making business and not anything else. Once it was determined that our baby wasn’t growing anymore, there was no need for us to be in that office. And I think that was really, really hard. Like, of course they give you the time in the room to kind of like collect, collect yourselves and do what you have to do before you leave the office. But they, I remember just breaking down and saying, like, how does anyone come back? How does anyone put themselves through this knowing that like, they could feel this again? And of course they had nothing to say. They were just like, this is so common. Like, you know, it happens to X amount of pregnancies. Yeah. But it’s really tough.

Speaker D

Yeah, I was thinking too about they’re in the baby making business because I also, you know, I’ve heard from so many women who even have, you know, pregnancies of full term of after the baby is here. Every other appointment moving forward is about the baby and like, not about the mom and her health and postpartum depression and all the things that are so common too. And so like you said, it’s not surprising, it doesn’t make sense, but it’s not surprising that it’s. Now that this is a situation, there’s been a miscarriage, it’s shuffling. You out the door. And I’ve also heard from people with miscarriages, like, yeah, there’s no, like, follow up call of like, how are you doing? This was really hard. This is horrible news.

Speaker A

Yeah. I did get a follow up call after the surgery. Okay. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker D

Sadly, it doesn’t seem like it’s the norm, but I’m so happy that you had that.

Speaker A

Yeah. The nurse who called did ask physic. She was mostly concerned if I was physically okay, you know, no clotting or anything like that. I did say, like, you know, I’m not doing great, like emotionally. And she said, yeah, that can take a few months. And I can’t really remember. She may have said something like, if it doesn’t. If it doesn’t start feeling better in a few months, give us a call.

Speaker D

And we’ll get you on medication.

Speaker A

Right, exactly, exactly.

Speaker D

That’s so, again, common. Not even, like, what resources can we give you or like, how can we give you some medication and again, mask maybe the deeper pain that’s. That’s going on.

Speaker A

Yeah, I know we’ve touched a bit on guilt and guilt as a mother. I think there’s a lot of that. I think there’s. I think there’s a lot of that with someone in my specific situation, so someone who has a beautiful little girl and is experiencing what they call secondary infertility. So that’s, you know, when you’re having trouble conceiving after. After your first. Whether you did or not with your first. And I guess, yeah, I wanted to touch on that because I feel like if anyone is listening to this before they’ve been able to conceive for the first time or if they are experiencing secondary infertility. For me, before I had Nellie, who’s our first daughter, I used to. Experiencing infertility was very hard for me. I had a lot of grieving just through that whole process. It was so hard to do anything, like go to baby showers or birthday parties for kids. And I used to have so much, I guess, resentment towards women who were experiencing secondary infertility. And I would just think, like, oh my God, you have your baby. Like, just, can you not be happy with the baby you have? And I would try to empathize because I was going through infertility as well, but it just didn’t feel the same. And even now, being in those shoes, I still feel like I still have guilt around it, like both for my daughter. Like, why, why can I not be satisfied with our daughter? Of course I am. But I also Feel this pull to add to our family. Of course, if we couldn’t add to our family, it would not be the end of the world. But. Yeah, there’s just a lot of, like, raw emotions around that. I have so much love for my daughter and I especially after having a miscarriage and feeling such a strong connection to that baby. I feel like we are supposed to. Whatever that means, try for adding on to our family. Yeah.

Speaker D

I think that you. You captured that really beautifully of. Yeah. Like the guilt and resentment in your infertility at the beginning and then how even after you had a successful pregnancy and. And brought Nellie into this world, how guilt and resentment shifted to look like something different. That all the foundation being infertility and how hard that is to be in different social situations and say, comparing again, but comparing other people’s journey with it. And I mean, that’s so common in so many different types of grief and loss. And I also just think that what you were saying about resentment of. For you, you know, baby showers. And I can imagine. I know I don’t know you super well, Abby, but I can imagine that it felt pretty shitty to hold those emotions to have the internal dialogue of resentment and sadness and grief for whoever you were celebrating in pregnancy while also, like, wanting to be happy for them too and that not feeling totally aligned with who you are.

Speaker A

Yes.

Speaker D

And yeah. And I, you know, I can. I can relate to it in. In similar. But of course, very, very different ways too. Of like when I go to friends weddings or, I mean, even they don’t need to be big events, but when people are there with their mom or, you know, sister stuff. Of course I still have one sister. But the comparing of like, like deep sadness that my mom will not be here for these benchmarks that my friends get to have with their mom. And it’s the both and like, so grateful that my friends have these ongoing relationships and like deep sadness and resentment. And then I feel guilty that I feel those ways. So I think no matter what the loss is, I think there’s. There’s often that aspect of this too for people.

Speaker A

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that about your mom and. And your sister.

Speaker D

Yeah.

Speaker A

It’s. It’s so hard. You. And then you tell yourself or you ask yourself when you’re having those feelings, like, is this who I am? Like, am I a bad person for having these thoughts? You know? Yeah. And then people around you can reflect things to you. Like, you know, my husband and I have. Have gotten into. Into arguments about, you know, me not wanting to go to a baby shower or birthday party and. And him kind of like pushing the subject. Yeah, but we should go, you know, support our friends and. And then not feeling seen in that moment by the person who’s going through this with you, and. Yeah, it just brings up a lot in so many layers to it. Yeah.

Speaker D

Yeah. And how in those moments, it’s kind of like a lose, lose. Especially that dynamic you just described with your husband of you either say something and then whether there’s pushback or just you’re not on the same page, and then you’re feeling misunderstood with it, or you don’t say anything and you go. And then maybe sometimes, at least for me, like, can feel like you’re fucking dying inside because you’re trying to push through and be in these settings. And then you feel more alone. Or at least I do in those situations because you’re like, okay, I’ll just show up and do the thing I’m supposed to do and smile, make the small talk. And. And then it feels horrible.

Speaker A

Yes.

Speaker D

There’s just, like, not a. There’s not a right answer, obviously, but, yeah, no, it’s. It’s so lonely in those moments. And I can imagine it. Yeah. Like you said, makes it hard, too. And it is something that you and your husband are going through together, but the way you’re coping and grieving is probably really different in a lot of ways.

Speaker A

For sure. Yeah.

Speaker D

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Even just briefly touching on it since the overturning of Roe v. Wade and the implications with kind of in the political world, with miscarriages now, like, I’m. I guess I’m just curious of. I don’t know, is that like a layer for you in the current world that we’re in, where, you know, there are states where women are being blamed and persecuted for having a miscarriage? I know political conversations, not something we talked about ahead of time, but it just also seems kind of important as a woman in at least the United States right now.

Speaker A

Yeah, it’s completely on my mind. Yeah. Especially going back. Jumping back into fertility treatments and knowing that. That. That I’m susceptible to. To my state, which. To my state’s policies, which is. It is not good to be in Texas as a woman. You know, if anything goes wrong, especially because I have Nellie, I think about that so much, and I get very scared about it all the time. I. I try to put it out of my mind and tell myself that my husband would take care of me and we would do what we need to do. To. To make sure that I get care that I need. God forbid I have, like, an ectopic pregnancy or something. That’s like, my main concern. Because, yeah, if there’s a heartbeat, they’re, like, not gonna. They’re not gonna try saving you. It definitely just adds, like, a layer of stress to fertility treatments and going through infertility. It’s heavy.

Speaker D

It’s a lot.

Speaker A

Yeah, yeah, it’s.

Speaker D

It’s just so heartbreaking that on top of everything that you’ve already shared, of just your own journey and infertility and all the things that you are having to do to try, of course, like, everything that’s in your control to have a healthy, viable pregnancy and in the really hard reality of, like, so much is outside of your control.

Speaker A

Exactly.

Speaker D

Then to add on top again, like, the state of the world and. Yeah, being. Being in a state like Texas. Yeah. I can just imagine is a whole different, unsettling layer.

Speaker A

Very much so on top of this. Yeah.

Speaker D

Well, thanks for talking to that piece of it.

Speaker A

Yeah. And we’ve, like, my husband and I have both talked to my ob GYN about it as well, just to know, like, their policies on things. We live in Austin, which is a very, like, blue area of Texas, but of course, the state’s policies are what hold. So they do have plans in place for, you know, if. If you needed an abortion for the safety of yourself and your health. They have connections in California, so they send people to California or, you know, you have to send yourself financially. You’re backing up, but. But it’s really like the emergence, the emergency cases that are. That are scary to think through, and also all the cases for women who aren’t privileged enough to just, like, up and bring themselves to California. Yeah, it’s a really. It’s a really tough thing politically, and just hoping for better days ahead.

Speaker D

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I appreciate it.

Speaker C

So, as we’re wrapping up, I know.

Speaker D

That you had sent a list of.

Speaker C

Some questions to ponder and think about.

Speaker D

So anything else you wanted to make sure we touched on before we’re all done?

Speaker A

Some things that I wrote down were the idea around, do we need reason for suffering but accept joy without question? And why is that? It seems it’s human desire to find patterns in meaning in everything. Why is that? Why are we so quick to assign meaning to suffering? Is hope a form of faith or just wishful thinking? How do you grieve someone who never got to exist in the way you imagined them?

Speaker D

Reading through some of the things you sent me that was something that I think is also so common and part of this and are the like, what ifs and whether, whether it’s at eight weeks or whether it’s the loss of my 57 year old mother. Right. Like there’s a lot of what ifs, what would my life look like if this thing hadn’t have happened? And so I can imagine that that has been a part of your process the last few months as well with, with Ori and with the different what ifs in that.

Speaker A

Yeah, definitely. I don’t know how it’s been for you. I’d love to hear since your mom’s death and since your sister’s death, but my miscarriage happened, you know, pretty recently, like a few months ago. And I know that with like every passing month, I would think I would be five months along, six months along. We would be going to this appointment, we would be going to that appointment. I would be so hot because it’s the summer and uncomfortable but like not in a bad way. It would just be like, you know, part of the pregnancy experience. And I know that I’m anticipating the grief to reappear at those markers, like at the due date, which is November 1st and every passing year, every age marker that Nellie hits like two, two and a half, three and then, you know, what age would, what age gap would they have had and all of that.

Speaker D

Yeah, the, in kind of the grief world and you might know this term, Abby, we talk about grief math a lot like that grief math is. Gets very confusing and it’s also just such part of the process. Like in an episode recently, I was trying to figure out how old my sister was when she died. And knowing that I haven’t hit that age yet, but knowing that I will be soon and then. Right. It’s not just math, it’s all the emotions that come up with it. And then at least for me in that example, it was a moment like I actually felt almost like paralyzed. I couldn’t figure out the math and I felt like my brain was kind of glitching trying to figure it out. And what happens for me when I precede that age that my sister was when she died and obviously further down the line if I make it to that age. But same with my mom, like my mom died at 57 and yeah, what will that feel like? And so I think so much of grief and it’s a term that I do use a lot and it’s one that I still think in the grief world isn’t known as much, but it’s like these secondary losses, like the death of the person, the thing, whatever, is the primary loss and then all the other losses that surround it coming from that and the what ifs, the a big one for me, a big secondary loss that’s an ongoing process, is like, who would I be today if I hadn’t experienced those losses and how many years has it been? And yeah, that grief math is just so hard. And we also want to, I think, especially in our society, apply some sort.

Speaker A

Of.

Speaker D

Like, benchmark in our grief. With the grief math. Right. There’s sometimes a lot of weight of the first year. And I know that I’ve. I’ve heard with like miscarriages, like the months like you’re talking about and leading up to what was supposed to be the due date.

Speaker A

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all of that about your mom and your sister. Yeah, that’s so hard.

Speaker D

Absolutely. I just wanted to loop back around too. And I know you wrote about this and I think in some ways it’s maybe a. Probably a bigger conversation too, but this idea of when positive or good things happen, like when you got pregnant so quickly with Ori and you know, saying like, it was meant to be and then it doesn’t always apply to us on the other side of that, of when something goes wrong or when there’s loss or when there’s trauma, at least for me, it feels minimizing. Like we don’t want to say, like, oh, well, this, I mean, I know people do, but I guess the miscarriage was meant to be. And so I know in what you shared a few minutes ago of that curiosity, of like, making meaning, but at least from my perspective and both being a therapist and just my own grief, I do think that so much of that meaning making is something that is kind of pushed on us to minimize discomfort and I think oftentimes other people’s discomfort and yeah, what are we left with when people don’t want to or don’t feel called? To make meaning of hardships was kind of a curiosity or a thread amongst all the things that you shared today too.

Speaker A

Yeah, definitely. I think about it a lot right now. I am someone who definitely assigned meaning to things and probably still do, but having gone through the miscarriage and I’ve been listening to your podcast quite a bit over the last couple weeks and I just feel like I’m at a stage in my life, at least where I’m thinking things can’t, I don’t know, the world can’t work like that. The world doesn’t work like that. Like, bad things happen to such good people all the time, and there’s no reason for it. I don’t believe there is. And I think if that’s the case, then it’s the case for everything across the board. Right. Like, if. If it’s not happening for a reason when something bad happens, then it’s not happening for a reason when something good happens either. And I think that can bring you to kind of other big questions in.

Speaker D

Your life, like, oh, my gosh.

Speaker A

Like, well, what am I doing here and what am I. What am I doing with my life and why? I think when people are grieving big losses, they sometimes go through existential crises like that. And. And you can understand why. You can understand someone changing their entire life or how they were living because of a loss. Yeah. I think it would be really interesting if society pushed more of those questions. If nothing happens for a reason, what do you want to. What do you want to change? What do you want to do with your life? If nothing happens for a reason.

Speaker D

Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of puts the agency back on us, like you’re saying, versus just being like a. A pawn or a victim.

Speaker A

Exactly.

Speaker D

To the universe. So, yeah, I do. I think we could probably do a whole other episode just even about that existential question. And again, knowing for so many people in deep moments of grief and trauma. Yeah, questions like that are really challenged. Our belief systems are really challenged in that way. And it feels like a lot sometimes on top of everything else that we’re going through. But, yeah, I think that those. Those big questions of, well, then who am I and how do I want to keep living my life is a really important one. I really appreciate you sharing that perspective and kind of your. Some of your evolution through that. And I’m sure there’ll be more.

Speaker A

Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure there will be.

Speaker D

Well, Abby, thank you so much for being willing to do this. I know that it’s not easy to do, and as I already named, I know there was some of the hesitancy around, like, comparing your experience to others. And. And I just feel really honored and grateful that you were willing to come on and talk about your experience. And as I told you before, I think this episode, your story, your writing is going to help so many people, because, sure, miscarriages are not uncommon, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not worth being talked about and grieved. And so it’s not the. It’s one or the other. All death is going to happen. Right. Just because something is, quote, normal or common, it still deserves a space for it. So thank you for being willing to talk about some of that today.

Speaker A

Thank you so much for having me on and giving me this platform to talk about it. And I know the podcast is helping so many people through all different lived experiences.

Speaker D

Thank you.

Speaker C

So that’s all for this episode of Nothing Happens for a Reason. If you found value in today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a review. It truly helps our community grow. You can also follow the official Nothing Happens for a Reason Instagram account and sign up for our newsletter to be the first to hear about new episodes, exciting additions to the podcast, and special giveaways. And finally, if you know someone who might find solace or understanding here, especially as they navigate grief, please share this podcast with them. I deeply appreciate your support. We’ll be back with a new episode next Thursday.