The Weight of “Strong”: Grief, Profound Loss, and Finding Authentic Connection

**Claire (Host):** Welcome back to Nothing Happens for a Reason. In season one, we did the deep dive. We challenged the cliches, we avoided empty platitudes, and we found that the chaos of life is actually what connects all of us. Now we’re back for season two, where the questions are poignant and we’re ready to prove that a truly good life isn’t about fate. It’s about how you respond to everything that just happens. So stop looking for the script, because it doesn’t exist. This is Nothing happens for a reason. **Claire (Host):** Hey, Chelsea, thanks for coming on today. **Chelsea (Guest):** My pleasure. **Claire (Host):** So a little bit of background. You reached out to me and you shared a little bit of information about being drawn to the name of my podcast, but also wanting to share a little information about how there are times of your life where you actually really leaned into the other side of the coin of the everything happens for a reason. And so I thought maybe that could be a good place to start and whatever you want to share within that journey. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. Yeah. I think anyone who’s experienced any iteration of loss, whether that is, you know, a death and losing someone in that way or, you know, a job loss, a relationship loss. Right. Like, anyone who’s dealt with any kind of loss, which I think is probably all of us, has heard the, well, there’s a reason, or what’s the silver lining? Right. Like some iteration of the same notion that everything happens for a reason. And I have. I’ve navigated a lot of loss from early, early days. I watched my brother die when I was 3. And so from, you know, even pre. Ability to have memory. Super. Right. I’ve had. I’ve been watching loss and watching my parents. A lot of my formative years were watching my parents navigate loss and the kind of thing, you know, parents losing a child is. It’s an extra brutal. It’s an extra brutal form of loss. And I think in part because so much of my childhood was shaped by loss and death. And I watch my parents try to figure out how to survive truly in the face of that. I think for a time, I needed to cling to everything happens for a reason. Like, I needed there to be meaning. Cause especially when you’re a kid, like, I needed it to have some sort of meaning or have some sort of purpose. Because if it didn’t, that. And it’s like, what am I doing? Why am I here? Get me off of this planet, you know? **Claire (Host):** Yeah, totally. What. What did you see your parents doing during those. Those years? Like, how did they cope? Or was the everything Happens for a reason. Something that they passed on to you in that during those times. **Chelsea (Guest):** I don’t consciously. I don’t. I don’t have any memory of them ever saying that, but they. I mean, so realistically, what coping looked like was a lot of pharmaceuticals and alcohol on my mom’s side. And then my dad was just deeply addicted to his work. And so there was like, the. You know, the. The addictions, they used to distract themselves and have some sort of purpose. But then where I really saw and got the everything happens for a reason narrative is that my brother was autistic, and my mom, within a year after he died, started a camp for kids with autism and their families. And my dad ran. Did like a day camp for siblings so the siblings could have a sort of normal summer camp experience. Cause siblings of special needs kids tend to get the short end of the stick and don’t have a lot of those experiences and. Or don’t have peers that they can connect to. Right. So my dad ran sibling camp. My mom ran the therapy camp, and that camp still exists. And there are schools and there’s a whole philosophy, and there’s like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, my parents made something beautiful that has changed many lives out of my brother’s death. And every year, I saw. On the first night where there’s a group dinner, I saw my mom tell the story. And it’s like, at this point, dear God. I mean, she could, like, do it in her sleep. It’s so rote. It is so the same story over and over again. But she would tell the story basically of his death happened for a reason, and she made meaning of it. So it felt a little bit, for me, a little bit less like a placation of everything happens for a reason. Just find it. It was a little bit more of. I saw them make an active choice to make meaning of it. **Claire (Host):** Right. **Chelsea (Guest):** And that’s where I think I clung to it for a long time, because I was like, okay, I can be. I can feel powerless and helpless and, like, what the hell is the point of anything in response to these things? Or I can be like, I’m gonna make something of this. **Claire (Host):** Yeah, that. Yeah. It’s funny how those. I think for so many people, because we live in a world where people really love black and white options, that those feel like the two options, like. Or either like a victim or. We have to believe everything happens for a reason. **Chelsea (Guest):** Exactly. **Claire (Host):** And, you know, through the process, I think so many. So many of us go through realizing there’s a lot of in between, too. **Chelsea (Guest):** Exactly. Yeah. And I think a lot of it. I mean, I don’t know, a lot of my experience around dealing with grief and loss and death has come to. Has come down to a point where I give myself permission in each moment to ask, like, what is useful? What do I need in order to deal with this? And if sometimes I’m like, I need to believe that there’s meaning to this. Okay. But I also know, like, I’m choosing. I am choosing to believe, like, put meaning behind this, and that’s how I’m gonna navigate it, or I’m choosing to say, you know what? I’m a little bit in a nihilist moment, and, like, there’s no point to any of it, and I’m just gonna feel that, and I’m just gonna feel the agony of it, and I’m gonna let that be okay. But, like, giving myself that, like, the permission to take off a roadmap or have any sort of expectation of what grieving is gonna look like. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. **Claire (Host):** And so this summer camp, how long were you kind of involved? Was it just through, like, your upbringing because you were. You would go every year with your parents, or did it ever turn into something that you also, like, worked at when you were an adult? **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, I have. So I. That was. It was what we did during the summer. So that was. That was how I spent my summers growing up. And I was. I guess I was 4, 4 or 5 when the camp first started. And as I. So I was in. Initially in sibling camp. My little sister and I were in sibling camp with our dad. And then, as we got older, kind of helped him run it. And then by the time I was, I don’t know, 13 or 14, I started working in the therapy camp. And so I worked at it throughout, like, throughout high school and then continued to do it some in college on and off. And I’ve also gone back a couple of times. I’ve gone with my husband. He’s helped. He’s run sibling camp now, now that my dad’s not around. My husband ran sibling camp of God. I mean, years ago now. But, yeah, I’ve done it. So, yeah, it has been something I’ve continued to do. **Claire (Host):** Wow. Yeah. Even as, like, passed it on to your husband, who joined the family. That’s something that he’s been a part of. Okay. Is your mom still alive? **Chelsea (Guest):** Yes, my mom is still alive. **Claire (Host):** Okay. Okay. And I know you shared that your dad did die when you were in your 20s. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, he died in 2017. I was 26, I think. **Claire (Host):** Okay. **Chelsea (Guest):** It was the year. About six months after I started my business, six months after I got married. And he. Yeah, he. Yeah, he killed himself. **Claire (Host):** Was that experience like for you? **Chelsea (Guest):** I mean, goodness, huge, life changing. It was so many things. It. Ultimately I was not surprised. I’ve known my dad has been talking about suicide for as long as I can remember. So it was, it was shocking in a way. You know, receiving he scheduled emails. So I received an email suicide note. And so it was shocking. You know, that news is never gonna not be startling to the nervous system and the brain, but it was not surprising. The part that I guess was also was shocking, but still not surprising is that he, both of my grandparents, his parents are still, were still alive at the time and as was his brother. He and my mom were divorced, but he put me in charge of his estate. He put me in charge of everything. And I was the only one who got a detailed explanation of the why. Yeah, I received a novella of an email. Whereas my grandparents and my uncle received very short suicide notes. My sister and mother did not receive suicide notes. I got to tell them. **Claire (Host):** Oh, wow. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. So I mean, it was messy and as shocking as it was and ugly and like I can absolutely get myself pissed off about to this day about what my dad put on my shoulders. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** But I did honestly have a pretty large degree of peace around all of it from the get go. I mean, what’s the shock? You know, but like there was a degree of like, okay, this makes sense. He wasn’t happy. He was suffering. Like it was hard for him to be alive and witnessing how confusing that was for everyone around me. They, some people were mad at me about it. Some people like wanted to like get it from me. They were trying to figure out like, what is. How have you made sense of this? How are you okay? **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** And it was like, I’m not really okay. And it was really fascinating to witness, you know, my mother and my sister’s reaction and my grandmother’s reaction to the experience and also to their reaction to my reaction to his death. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** And my grandfather too, and my uncle. I mean it was, it was tense and honestly, I ended up not speaking to my family for four or five years at a. After a certain point because it was, it got, it got ugly. **Claire (Host):** Do you mind sharing a little bit more about that process of disconnecting from them? Like what was a tipping point for you of saying this is too much for me. I need to. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, make space. Not make space, be around you so the, The. The ultimate tipping point was this. The, the, this, this six month period of 2017 was absolutely insane because shortly after my dad died, my husband of less than a year started having an affair. **Claire (Host):** So it was my whole life, Chelsea. **Chelsea (Guest):** I know, I know. Ended this way. I’m like, this. This is just my life. But it was brutal. And I felt. So when right around the time I found out about the affair, I also found out that my mom had been telling all of her siblings and my cousins that I was cheating her out of money from my. Yeah, which was not true. But she was sending these emails. My sister had gotten one of them. And she was not blaming my sister, but she was trying to turn the family against me. And then she told my sister that she didn’t want to have to sue us, but she had spoken to an attorney about possibly moving forward with litigation. And so those two things, I was like, okay, this. I can’t have a relationship with you. And that was essentially while she was the one who had gone so extreme in that route. I mean, my grandmother had also been really just kind of problematic in. She was just asking. She was needing me to hold a lot of weight for her and pressuring me around questions. And I think she was mad at me that he put me in charge instead of her is what it felt like. And so it had all but that moment where my mom was threatening to sue us and sending the family. **Claire (Host):** Shut up. **Chelsea (Guest):** She was telling them all sorts of lies. That was the moment that I was. Honestly, I was so barely able to function that I just went, I cannot talk to any of these people. I can’t. Like. And so I blocked. I set up email filters so that their emails just automatically get archived and blocked phone numbers. And really, I mean, I decided to be an orphan. Wow. **Claire (Host):** So not even with your sister? All of them. **Chelsea (Guest):** All of them. Everyone. Yeah, everyone. I talked to my sister first and like. But it was, yeah, just a very, very solid wall because I couldn’t survive. I couldn’t survive if I still had that. You know, my sister was posting about or was always looking at what our dad’s colleagues were saying and looking at all sorts of things and just wanting to dig up. They were. They were in spaces that I just couldn’t. I couldn’t survive. Like, I couldn’t continue to feed myself, wake up, move through the world, take care of my pets. I couldn’t do it if I had them in my life. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. What did your support look like during that time? **Chelsea (Guest):** I was very. I was very. I Was surprised to find out. So there might. Apparently sometimes life insurance does actually pay after suicide. That was shocking to me. But I had a bit of life insurance money from my dad that allowed me to. I had already. I’d been seeing a therapist individually and she, this woman, love her so dearly. I don’t see her anymore because I’ve moved states but I saw her individually and she also runs therapy groups which I always initially thought group therapy was just like the cheaper option and I thought it was like budget therapy. Like. No, sure. **Claire (Host):** Group therapy groups. **Chelsea (Guest):** Incredible. Oh my God. Life changing. God. Everyone who I was in a group with. **Claire (Host):** Oh, was it like a brief group or was it just like a general process group or what type of group was it? Do you know? **Chelsea (Guest):** It was I think a general process group. So she, she runs, I think she still runs two of them or maybe three but she has multiple groups that she honestly shapes. They’re, they’re invite only and she shapes them based on like the people in this group are going to help you in the right way because they have certain archetypes. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** So yeah, yeah. **Claire (Host):** I love that you had that experience. This group is one of my favorite therapeutic interventions. And like you’re saying so many people are resistant to it or people think it’s like community support meetings, like recovery support. They think it’s the same thing. And yeah, they’re uncomfortable but like you’re saying there’s so much value of being in a space where it’s a microcosm for the bigger world. And yeah, people are going to trigger us and bring stuff up but if we have a space to be able to process through it in a structured therapeutic environment, then we get to heal in ways that you really can’t individually. And so I love that you gave it a shot and that you found value in it. **Chelsea (Guest):** It took her a while to convince me. Like I’d been a one on one. I had been her client for at least two years and she’d like seeded it, she’d been starting to seed it and I think by the time I, I’d been in group for a minute like at least six months. I think I was in it for a couple years but I’d been in there for a bit when my dad died and so fortunately. And it was the same, it was every Monday at 5:30, same time, just set, came to therapy. So I had them, I had my therapist, I am a yoga teacher and I had the. I was teaching at and taking classes at the place where I did my teacher training. Which I found when I was physically. So I’d been going there for a long time and so I did have that support. And an incredible. Have you heard of tre? Do you know tension and trauma releasing exercises? I think is. **Claire (Host):** Yeah, yeah, yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** An incredible friend of mine who taught me tre and was a teacher there, I had her support and she referred me to a spiritual counselor is what she calls herself, who just did incredible work. And then I also was working with my EFT mentor who I learned to do tapping from and I’ve been working with her to learn how to facilitate it. And then we were like, actually you’re just going to help me survive. So I had basically like 360 degree outpatient. I had fully. I had so much support and thank God I did because my husband was actively having an affair. I was hiding it from everyone. I had quit my job and started my business and was like, I’m a health coach, you should hire me to help make your life better. Just kidding. My life is falling apart. I don’t know how to help anyone. **Claire (Host):** Yeah, I was curious too. I mean, wow, like so much professional support and groups and therapy and spiritual and yoga and all those things, like so wonderful. And I was also curious, like what about just like your social network? **Claire (Host):** Like your husband talked to nobody. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, I talked to nobody. **Claire (Host):** It’s hard. **Chelsea (Guest):** And that wasn’t, I mean that wasn’t true at first, but with. It became pretty quickly apparent, especially when I had that kind of cutoff moment with family because at that point my husband and I were not living together. We were not choosing to be separated, it was just, we were, it was terrible. And we could not cohabitate. And so I was not really talking to him very much. Was trying to. Because I was trying to save our marriage and be like, please stop having this affair. Was talking to my sister in law a little bit, but it wasn’t constructive. And I think ultimately all of my friends were somewhat understandably like, your husband is cheating on you while you’re in the aftermath of your dad’s suicide. Leave him like what? Get rid of him, divorce him, go. And understandable, like that’s an understandable take. But it wasn’t what I wanted. It wasn’t. And I genuinely felt like this is the last piece of family I have. Yes, I can’t lose this. And so I stopped talking to people who weren’t willing to hear that. And genuinely, I just publicly, I lived a fake life when I went out and taught classes or when I went on Instagram to post about Things I just put on a face and was fake completely. **Claire (Host):** Like, just surviving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just. I want to highlight what you were saying a few moments ago about the, like, choosing to disconnect from people who maybe were not understanding the choices that you were making. And I think I just want to really normalize what you just said as something that. I mean, it’s so common that if you’re losing a lot of people, whether to death or, like you said, choosing to be estranged from people. Yeah. The idea of then making a decision, even though it wasn’t a healthy relationship at the time and there was a lot of things going on. Like, of course you’re going to cling to that relationship, because if you’re the one that walks away, it’s. Yeah, it’s one more person and maybe the last person. And so it kind of just validates those moments of. Yeah. When. When people don’t really get it and they’re giving advice. And then, you know, ultimately what happens is we end up pulling away from those people because whether we feel judgment or, again, they just don’t understand the deep pain of what that would mean. And. Yeah, of course, like, in. In retrospect, were you hurting yourself more by staying in that dynamic? **Chelsea (Guest):** Absolutely, 100%. **Claire (Host):** Of course. Of course. Of course. Want to. You didn’t. And of course you didn’t want to walk away, though, at that time. Like, you know, we pick and choose, and I might as well stay miserable if it means saving. **Chelsea (Guest):** I have one person. **Claire (Host):** I have one person that’s here kind of sort. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, it was with all the asterisks. Yeah. **Claire (Host):** Right. **Chelsea (Guest):** With all of the asterisks. Yeah. Because he wasn’t there, but it was the one sort of piece of. I felt like I would be completely lost. Like, I wouldn’t even just be losing him. I would lose the life I had completely. **Claire (Host):** Right. All the secondary losses that would come from ending that marriage. The. The life you built at your housing situation. I don’t know. I don’t know if you’d shared pets. Right. Like, just. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, we did. Yeah. **Claire (Host):** Like separating. **Chelsea (Guest):** They’re still here. **Claire (Host):** Right. Like, there’s so much there that ripples from that, too. That just feels harder than just staying in something that’s hard. Yeah. Like, I’d rather. Yes. Stay in something even though it’s not good. Just because I. It’s familiar and comfortable. **Chelsea (Guest):** Right. **Claire (Host):** Comfortable in quotes. Right. **Chelsea (Guest):** Right. **Claire (Host):** So, yeah, it makes so much sense. And, yeah, I totally can understand why you got to a point of the support in My life. That was what they were pressuring me to do. They didn’t understand it. So I. Again, I might as well just isolate. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. **Claire (Host):** From everyone around me. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. Except the people who I’m paying. Except it was. And I’m grateful that, you know, I had some of those people who had known me long enough that they would check me like, that they weren’t just yes people, you know. **Claire (Host):** Yeah, yeah, yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** But it was. I was like, I can’t. I couldn’t. I couldn’t talk to anyone. At least I didn’t think I could. It wasn’t helpful for me surviving. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. Yeah. And I know you wrote in that first email you sent me of, like, getting to a point of people around you, whether friends or family or. I mean, you said. Actually, I think therapists in there, too, of it kind of just got easier to shut the fuck up than to keep feeling the grief and the pain. To kind of. At least the way I read that is to make other people’s lives around us easier by pretending, like, whether we’re healed, like past tense, or we’re over it or it’s not something that still causes us pain. And so I guess I was curious if you could speak a little bit more to that. Yeah. I. **Chelsea (Guest):** I mean, I feel like my whole life I’ve felt too much. And, you know, when one of your first. Like when. When part of your origin story is I saw my brother die when I was three, and my whole. So much of my life has been oriented around that. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** And his death and his memory. You learn pretty quickly, like, oh, death. We don’t. We shouldn’t talk about that. Oh, that makes people uncomfortable. That makes that stat. That feels weird. And that’s part of where I think I did cling to the. It happens for a reason. I made something good out of it, like, because then I would rebrand, you know, because it’s the. It’s wild to me how often it comes up. How often when I’m, like, meeting someone new, the whole. It amazes me how often I am faced with the moment of being, like, do I mention my dead brother or not? Because it’s not like, do you have any siblings? It’s such a natural question. Or like. And even if that’s not the question, but, like, that one is usually the one that gets it or that sparks it. And it’s a really weird moment for me because I do have siblings. I have two siblings. One of them’s just been dead for most of my life. And. But I. But I’ve I’ve. I have learned that in those moments, I have a choice. I have a choice to be the weird one who talks about death and the weird one who’s like, yep, got a dead brother. And then. And when people are like, oh, do you have any siblings? They’re not asking, like, they don’t want that. They’re not expecting you to be like, yep, middle child between. You know, one of them’s still here, one of them’s gone. Yeah, that’s not what they’re asking. This is small talk. This is where we’re just, like, getting to know each getting warm. And, you know, the more I’ve experienced things of, you know, oh, your dad’s not around. Yeah, he killed himself and sent me a note and then scheduled a blog post to go out two hours later telling the entire world. It’s like, yeah, okay, no one’s asking for. No one’s asking for that. People don’t want to have that conversation. They don’t want to look at it. Your husband had an affair. No one. They don’t wanna look at that. And so it’s. It’s not something I have an answer to. Honestly, it. Whenever it comes up, whenever these moments come up, I honestly do kind of a micro assessment of Chels. How much capacity do you have to be the weird one right now? Like, are you willing to do it or. Or how much capacity you have to lie? Because I don’t like lying. That’s also expensive to me. It is energetically expensive to act like I’m fine. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** To act like I don’t. I mean, dear God, the. The year. The year is littered for me with death adversaries and trauma versaries. **Claire (Host):** Right. **Chelsea (Guest):** Like, at this point, there is one most months. Yeah. You know, and to act like I’m fine when I pop on a zoom call with a client or when I’m creating Instagram stories or when I’m getting coffee. Like, whatever it is, it’s, you know, that. That has a tax that costs me something, but it also costs me something to share the truth when I know most people don’t have the tools to meet me there. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** And that’s okay. It’s. I mean, like, I don’t begrudge them, but it is fucking exhausting. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. Yeah. I think for. For me, it’s in some ways gotten easier. And I. I understand that dance you’re talking about also. And yeah. Sharing that my mom’s died feels a little bit easier than my sister. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. **Claire (Host):** Because what happens a lot is, like, I My sister lived most of her adult life in New York City. I would go visit her a lot. I have a lot of friends that live in New York City. My brother in law of my sister who died lives there. And so now when I go, people are like, oh, are you going to see family? And I’m like yes and no. And. Or people ask, do you still have family on the east Coast? And I’m like, like kind of. And so for me though, I think when I say that dance has gotten easier for me because I found that early in my grief I would put a lot of weight, like you’re saying on my. If I answered honestly and then the other person couldn’t hold it or they got uncomfortable or they just kind of like brushed over it, I would feel like resentful or disappointed or feel like exposed and they couldn’t take care of me. And as I’ve learned more tools of like how to self soothe myself, I just expect that people don’t know how to respond. And very few people are going to ask follow up questions or like even give me any sort of like, even like I’m so acknowledging people just kind of like, yeah, no acknowledgement. And so I, I usually choose, I do choose to say it because like you’re saying I, I don’t, like, I don’t want to be dishonest. And not just that, like as you know, in this podcast and this platform is a lot about like I want talking about it become more normal. Like I don’t want to not answer that part of my life because I don’t want them to be like, oh my gosh, she has a dead mom and a dead sister. And so I almost always answer the question, but I just assume it’s not going to go anywhere, which is very true. Usually people are just like, oh, okay, like have fun in New York. **Chelsea (Guest):** Moving on. Yeah, like have a good trip. I feel gonna go by now. **Claire (Host):** Bye. Exactly, exactly. But yeah, I think that’s so again normal of yeah. That, that dance or do you have siblings or do your parents still live on the east coast? Like all of that, all of those. **Chelsea (Guest):** Questions that it’s wild to me how much it comes up sometimes. And sometimes I honestly do laugh because I’m like, all right, this wow, didn’t. And it does genuinely, because I almost, I almost feel bad for the person who’s asking, especially if it’s someone who’s a relative stranger. I’m like, oh, I’m sorry that you, I’m sorry for what’s about to Happen to you. **Claire (Host):** It’s so funny. **Chelsea (Guest):** Fine. I’ll be okay. I’m good. You’re probably gonna be stressed. **Claire (Host):** I actually. I feel actually a little different about it. When it’s a completely stranger, I actually view it as. I like that I. I maybe is like, teaching them a lesson. Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** Oh, I feel the same way. But I’m just like, you didn’t bargain for this. **Claire (Host):** But I’m like, well, that. That’s what. That’s what you get. No, I don’t know. Like, but maybe they’ll think again next time they ask. **Chelsea (Guest):** Be a little more intentional with their questions. **Claire (Host):** Like, I literally remember. I think it’s probably the first time it happened the. My trip back east when my mom actually did die. And I was in Boston and waiting for my flight, and I was sitting at this bar and this older guy started talking to me. And just like, within a minute, he was like, oh, do your parents live out here? And I was like, my mom just died. And he was like, you’re so young. Like, how. And I was just like, he has. **Chelsea (Guest):** His whole narrative response around. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. So. Right. And in that moment, right, that was before I got more comfortable. I was like, maybe I don’t tell people that, yeah, my mom is dead, but again, it’s shifted and evolved for me. But I remember, like, that trip so clearly because it was the first time I had to tell a complete stranger who just, like, wanted to ask about casual details. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yep. **Claire (Host):** So. Or I’ve. I’ve had people too say, like, I actually, I. I’ve had a client who’s in his 60s, and he’s losing some people recently. And he specifically said, like, a few months ago. And I don’t do a lot of self disclosure. A lot of my therapy clients, like, don’t actually know anything about me or my loss. And he was talking about some of his loss he was having. He was like, you’ll understand when you’re older, when people in your life are dying. And I was like, like, I’m doing. **Chelsea (Guest):** Circles around you, bud. I’ve done, like, I have lapped you already, good sir. **Claire (Host):** Like, you literally don’t even know. But, yeah, these narratives that people carry. And then again, my. My decision in other settings to be like, oh, no, actually, I’ve had a lot of loss to try to help rewrite people’s narratives too, of like, you don’t just lose people when you’re old. Like, that’s not what this is about. But that narrative keeps people, I think, silent and feeling alone in, like, you were Saying at the beginning, like, it’s very common lived human experience that we just don’t talk about. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, yeah. That’s one of the few things absolutely every one of us is going to go through. And I think too, the narrative that like it’ll start happening when you get older is part of how. Is part of how we screw ourselves because then we’re just like, that’s not gonna happen. That doesn’t happen. That doesn’t happen to me. And you don’t even think about it. And then you get blindsided and there’s no tools around it. You’ve never. Cause you’ve never even conceived loss. Like, and it’s, it’s. I mean I’ve witnessed it with some of my friends. I’ve like, my friends who in high school who like, had more charmed lives growing up than I did. Watching how they dealt with like a breakup and like your first heartbreak, like, it’s. That is a legit loss 100%. But I remember being like an 18 year old and watching my friend being like, wow, what is wrong with you? And genuinely being so full of judgment of like, how, why are you falling? Like, come on, dude. Like, you’ll be fine. Come on, let’s like, let’s process this. Let’s grieve it. And I realized, oh my God, she doesn’t, this is a skill. She doesn’t know how to lose things. She hasn’t lost things. She hasn’t felt broken. She doesn’t know how to like walk around with pieces of you feeling like they’re falling out. Like she doesn’t know how to do that. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** And it. I’m so grateful that I. Good job, 18 year old Chels. For having that moment of like stepping out of being a judgy bitch. **Claire (Host):** Right. **Chelsea (Guest):** Which was my initial response and realizing. Oh, right. Most people, of course, we don’t know how to lose things. It’s not normal. And we don’t know how to fall apart and be apart. Be fallen apart. Because that’s like I, you know, in 2017, I was in pieces and I’m still in pieces. Like I’m mostly glued back together. But like pieces fall off sometimes. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** And being able to, to keep moving or be like being able to be present with myself around. Okay, today’s a day. Some days I wake up and I’m like, oh, all right. My heart, like it fractured again. I’m gonna be crying today. **Claire (Host):** Right. **Chelsea (Guest):** And being able to sit with that and you know, have people in my life who I can be honest with of, like, I’m not okay. I will be like, don’t try to fix me. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** But I’m not okay today. And letting that be okay. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. And that. Right, goes back to what we’re talking about with the platitudes. Right. So often I think the intention behind platitudes is to fix it, because I. **Chelsea (Guest):** Think it’s because people are uncomfortable. **Claire (Host):** They’re uncomfortable, and they. **Chelsea (Guest):** They want it to go away. **Claire (Host):** They want to go away. **Chelsea (Guest):** It’s not actually to fix you. It’s not to, like, make you feel better. **Claire (Host):** Discomfor. **Chelsea (Guest):** Exactly. They’re trying to soothe the discomfort, which is honestly why it pisses me off. That’s like. Because I’m like, that. You’re not saying this for me. And I don’t think most people know it, but, like, when you say, oh, well, there’s a silver. Everything happens for a reason. I’m like, honestly, go fuck yourself. Because you are not trying to make me feel better right now. Yeah, you’re trying to make you feel better. And I get it. I get it. I do. And you’re not. You’re not helping me right now. This isn’t for me. **Claire (Host):** Yeah, I feel the same way with other platitudes, especially ones with, like, religious air to them, because I’m also, like, in those moments, it. Yeah. I mean, it feels. It feels about them, and it feels selfish, too. Cause I’m like, you don’t know what my beliefs are. Like, again, I so clearly remember right after my sister died, I was going to the airport, like, within 24 hours. And, yep, I was definitely, like, I had a hat on, but I, like, definitely been crying. And again, I’ve gotten very comfortable crying in public spaces. And. **Chelsea (Guest):** Same. Same. **Claire (Host):** Yes. The TSA agent was like, oh, like, are you okay? And I was like, my sister just died. And he was like, you know what? She’s in heaven. She’s looking down on you. Like, she just wants you to be strong. And I literally. If it wasn’t a tsh, I wanted to be like, fuck you. Like, yeah. And I’m just like, why do you think that you don’t. Again, you don’t know my religious belief. And just putting so many beliefs on me in the midst of. Like, I was like, Like, I’m not okay, fine. **Chelsea (Guest):** How dare you? **Claire (Host):** And also, like, you’re, you know, federal agent. Like, there’s not much I can say to you. So I was just like. I was just like, oh, man. This is. It just. It’s so painful. It’s so Painful in those moments and another one. And actually, I wanted to bring it up because I think, again, you wrote, you wrote about in the email. But something else that I don’t think people always chalk up of being a platitude. But when people comment on, like, after trauma or grief or just, like, hard times, and people say, like, you’re so strong. And so tell me about your feeling about that one. Cause I have strong feelings, too. **Chelsea (Guest):** Oh, I have. I have strong feelings about being strong. And I was actually talking about this, about how sick I was of having to be strong. You know, my grandmother is talking to me about how she wants to, you know, end her life if things go bad and how it’s gonna be really hard for Jeff, my uncle. And so she’s gonna talk to him about it, but she’s telling me first. Cause I’m the one who’s gonna be planning the. And, you know, I’m the one who’s seen her funeral plans and the quotes that she’s written and we’ve talked about the music she wants. Because I just planned and orchestrated my grandfather’s funeral back in November of last year. I don’t know what it is about me, but this is, I, it is the role I carry in my family and also in my life with my friends. Like, I’m the one who people call when they’re in it. And I think some of it is because I do talk about things. And so people know, like, Chels is someone who you can say things to and you’re not gonna hear, oh, they’re in heaven. And looking down at, like, you’re not going to hear that from me. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** But I think when being strong has never really felt like a choice to be. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** Like, and so being praised for something that is, like, I mean, I guess the other option is I would have died. I don’t, like, I don’t know what the other. I didn’t have a choice. I don’t feel like I ever had a choice around, you know, being the happy little girl. When my brother died and my parents were barely functioning and my little sister was an infant. And so, like, I played happy, perfect, straight A’s, everything. Like, I played what I had to do to keep my parents as happy as they could be. Like, I, I, it just, it never felt like a choice to me. Right. And so when people reflect it to me of, like, oh, you’re so strong, and I can’t believe you got through that. Right. Like, when I tell people about 2017, it’s like, started my business, got married. Dad killed himself. Husband started having an affair. Mom turned my entire family against me, then threatened to sue me. That was. That was 2017. And I’m trying to build a business. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** When I tell people about that, they’re like, wow, can’t believe you got through that. You’re incredible. You’re so strong. And it feels like, man, you don’t even see me. Like, yeah, you’re right. I am. I am correct. Right. But really, you just, you need to gloss to the end. You can’t sit with me. You can’t. Like, it feels like an erasure of the depth of my experience. And it feels so reductive to say that. And it’s also upsetting. Cause it’s like, what choice did I have? Thanks. Yeah. What? Like, you are choosing to erase my experience and showing me that you have no willingness to meet me inside of any of the depth. And so honestly, at this point, I’m pretty. When I’m talking about it. I’m getting myself keyed up for sure. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** But for the most part, when people tell me that, I’m just like, oh, yeah, okay, cool. You have showed me you’re not going to get any of the juice. Okay, that’s fine. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. And again, it always, at least to me, feels like, like you just beautifully said, like, jumping to the end. That’s where like, it kind of falls for me under platitudes. Like, it’s absolutely them wanting to kind of self soothe themself, to focus on this, like, perceived strength. But yeah, I think so many of us similar, I think they kind of go hand in hand, like everything happens for a reason is like, okay, maybe fuck you. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. **Claire (Host):** And then you’re so strong. Also, I think so many of us are like, you don’t get it. Like, maybe you see a strong person on the outside. But for me, the times that I’ve been told that it’s. The times that I am showing up at work, I’m compartmentalizing. I’m not showing my grief, my trauma on the outside. And so the reinforcing message if I’m so strong is you keep showing up as this version of you and we’re impressed by you versus right. The other side of the coin was strong is weak. And so it’s. Does that mean when I’m feeling my grief, when I’m emoting, crying, calling out of work, whatever it is, does that mean those are the moments I’m weak? And I think it just reinforces this message. And yeah, for so many of us doing those things. When I’m strong, showing up at work and functioning right. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. With quotes. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. Are out of. Yeah. Like you said, pure necessity. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. **Claire (Host):** And so. Yeah, it’s. Yeah. Just. It never has hit for me. And then I think there’s been times in my life where I hear that, and it reinforces the message of, like, okay, this is who I need to be. This means I’m doing okay. This means I need to keep showing up this way. Or in those moments where I’m not feeling this version of me, I need to. Yeah. Hide, isolate, not let people see me. And then I feel even more alone because I’m like, oh, I have to maintain this image that I’m the strong one. And that’s exhausting. And again, so, so lonely. **Chelsea (Guest):** So lonely. And it, like, there’s no potential for post traumatic growth from that place. **Claire (Host):** Mm. **Chelsea (Guest):** Mm. Cause we’re li. And it was like, genuinely, I have. You know, I think with social media, so many of us feel some degree. And even just with, you know, work, like, work versus home, I think lots of us feel some degree of living multiple lives, of having, like, different versions of self that we show up with. Right. But definitely, I have never felt more like Jekyll and Hyde than that in 2017 in particular, where it was just, like, I absolutely showed up as cute, curated, palatable. Like, I went to go teach freaking yoga classes. I led retreats during that season. I did, like, Instagram lives, doing meditations and, like, flowy comm. Like, and just genuinely, like, I would be, like, falling apart. I was. I drank a ton during that time. Like, I absolutely used alcohol to numb. And so I’d be like, just absolute hedonist slob. Like, miserable. Kept my cats alive. And like, actually, honestly, I thank God for my animals because they absolutely kept me. And I also. One of the best things I ever did. I don’t even know where the hell I got this idea. I think I just came up with it. I don’t think I read it anywhere or anything, but I volunteered at the Humane Society, the animal shelter. And, like, because they. Because I didn’t have a regular job, right. I’d quit my job and started my business so I didn’t have to leave the house. And I was like, this is a problem. I need to have to leave the house. And so I volunteered at the animal shelter and was very, very good. And it was also a place, like, I was just, like, snotty, weeping, changing litter boxes. Like, at the animal shelter, they were like, we don’t Know who this girl is, but she’s, like, working full time here, and we don’t know why. **Claire (Host):** Or. **Chelsea (Guest):** How she’s, like, making money. What is. Like, we don’t know what her deal is, but it’s helpful. **Claire (Host):** Like, should we keep having her come? **Chelsea (Guest):** Like, yeah, they were very animals. Like, I don’t know the animals. **Claire (Host):** Like, that’s fine. **Chelsea (Guest):** They like her, but, like, what is. **Claire (Host):** Going on with this woman? But yeah, totally. Like those different versions of our. Ourselves during hard times. And. Yeah, the ability to show up with the. Yeah. Like the grieving side of you and the volunteering side of you and the yoga side of you. And then the one that. Yeah. Was abusing alcohol and just all these, like, fragmented parts of you as just a way of trying to cope and survive. Like, I don’t even know if cope’s the right word in those moments. Like, we’re just. **Chelsea (Guest):** It was survival. It was definitely survival at that point. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I’m glad we pin connect over the. The strong piece of this because really sets me off. Just gonna. Look, I had a couple notes here. The only other one that I have written down here, and we’ve kind of touched on parts of it. But again, in your email, you. You said a couple different times, which I really liked. You said, I like the squirm. I think the squirm is important. And so again, I know it’s kind of the theme of a lot we’ve talked about today, but it says, my question is, so what does the squirm represent to you? And why do you think it’s so vital for genuine connection and healing? **Chelsea (Guest):** Mm. Mm. Damn. That’s a good question. That is my default state. And I think, especially because I grew up. I mean, my brother’s death was just in. It’s such a core part of my origin story that it was just constantly, like. I’m very used to talking about death and, like, sibling death and young child death. So big. Not dinner table conversation, not the things that you talk about in a networking event. But that’s been me from age 3. And I think, you know, in the. But when I’ve been, like, in the more painful parts or when I’ve been more consumed by my grief and more fractured, like, when I’ve been more shattered and not yet, like, kind of able to even conceptualize holding pieces of myself together is. Those are the moments that I’m like, I don’t fucking know if I have the energy to. I don’t. I don’t know that I have it Because I think I’ve had to. I’ve had to explore the. The answer to the question of, like, what is my job? Do I have a job? What is my responsibility if my story, my truth, makes someone squirm, right? Like, do I have to make them comfortable? I don’t think, because socially, the answer is absolutely yes. Right? Like, the platitudes tell us, like, please give me the bow. Give me the bow on this. I don’t wanna say. I don’t wanna think about that. Like, I really don’t wanna think about that with you. Right? Or sit with you in the mess. Like, I want you to be the strong one. I want you to have some sort of archetype that we can, like, put a bow on it and move forward. **Claire (Host):** Tell me you made meaning of this like we talked about, right? **Chelsea (Guest):** Exactly. Like, how did you make meaning of it? It happened. They’re in heaven. They’re seeing, looking down on you. And I know, like, how did you. **Claire (Host):** Get from A to Z and healed now? Exactly. **Chelsea (Guest):** Like, let’s tie it up, put a cute little bow on it, and then slap it on a frigging greeting card or whatever. And that is. That is the antithesis of connection. Because it’s based on. It’s based on avoiding truth. It’s based on, like, having a moment. Like, the squirm happens when you are faced with a truth that is so intense that it is uncomfortable, right? It’s like, if you look directly at the sun, you have a natural visceral reaction of like, oh, I want to. I want to look away from that. And the squirm happens when you look at the sun. You see something, you hear something, you’re told something that is such truth, that is so uncomfortable that you’re like, I don’t want to look at it. And so when we just jump into platitudes or whatever version of trying to put a bow on it, like we’ve said, that immediately tells the person who has shared the truth with you tells them, you don’t see this. You’re not down to sit with me in this. Okay? But that’s immediately, like, we’re not connecting. Yeah, we are not gonna connect here. Okay, Then the person who shared, who created the squirm with their truth is like, all right, now I get to decide, do I want to make you feel better? Do I want to just agree to be the strong one? Do I? Right. Like, then we decide who do I want to be? What mask am I going to put on? Right? But that there’s no chance for connection versus when someone sits in the squirm and is willing to not try to make themselves comfortable and not try to jump to the end to find the hero’s journey of it to make you strong. Like, that’s where actual connection is. And it is like. **Claire (Host):** Loss. **Chelsea (Guest):** Whether we’re talking death or any other kind of loss, but death, like loss is. And death in particular, like, that is one of the only things that we are guaranteed to have in common with one another. And it’s one of the only. Like, it is also one of the things that is guaranteed to be difficult and painful and hard to live with. And those are the places where real, meaningful connection comes from. I mean, the handful of people who supported me in 2017, I will take a bullet for those people. Like, they like the connection that has come from someone who was willing to sit in the squirm with me and who didn’t have answers, who didn’t have, like, they had nothing to give me in terms of what we typically think of as valuable. Of, like, I don’t have a tool to give you or an answer or how to make it. They had no way to make it better. They couldn’t make it better. The people who sat with me through it, they listened to me spin on the same problem and snot and, like, weep my way through the same issues, and they sat with me in it. And, like, that’s real connection. Yeah, that is real. That is real intimacy. And because this is one of those universal experiences, we make our lives harder. People make their lives harder by trying to avoid it. **Claire (Host):** Yeah, absolutely. So beautifully said. So many people are conditioned to feel like they’re only a value if they can. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah. **Claire (Host):** Fix it or find answers. And if people can just let go of that pressure and that narrative to know that there is no answers, there’s no fixing this. Like, you actually just have to, like, sit here with me. Yeah, that’s the answer is. I know it’s easy. **Chelsea (Guest):** That’s the answer. **Claire (Host):** Yeah, that’s the fix. Easier said than done. Because again, we work through societal and sometimes gender pressures of give me an answer. But it’s like, no, you just have to work through knowing there isn’t an answer. Just be here. Yeah. **Chelsea (Guest):** No, let me be in pain. **Claire (Host):** Let me be in pain. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, let me be in pain. And let that be okay. Because when. When pain becomes wrong, that’s where it actually will, like, kill us. That’s where it will eat us alive. Because if we can’t show our pain, if they’re not spaces where we can just be in pain and not have to hide it. That’s where, like, that pain will eat us alive. **Claire (Host):** Yep. It’s so beautiful. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being willing to sit with me today in both of our squirms and be able to be authentic, share different parts of your lived experiences. And yeah, at least in this space, knowing you don’t have to be strong. Yeah, you don’t have to be anything that you’re not. And yeah, I just. Your story is really, really valuable. And yeah, just. I really appreciate that you reached out and expressed interest and I’m glad that we were able to make this work for today. **Chelsea (Guest):** Yeah, me too. I’m glad. Thank you for doing what you’re doing. This is very important work, very important conversations. **Claire (Host):** Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. Okay. Thanks for coming on. **Chelsea (Guest):** My pleasure. **Claire (Host):** So that’s all for this episode of Nothing Happens for a Reason. If you found value in today’s conversation, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a review. It truly helps our community grow. You can also follow the official Nothing Happens For a Reason Instagram account and sign up for our newsletter to be the first to hear about new episodes, exciting additions to the podcast, and special giveaways. And finally, if you know someone who might find solace or understanding here, especially as they navigate grief, please share this podcast with them. I deeply appreciate your support. We’ll be back with a new episode next Thursday.