Claire Andrus: I'm so glad that you agreed to come on.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Of course.
Claire Andrus: You are such an important part of my grief story. Thanks for being willing to be here.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Thanks for asking me. I'm glad to be here.
Claire Andrus: Yeah. So much to unpack.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Where to begin.
Claire Andrus: Where to begin. But really, though.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah, lots to unpack.
Claire Andrus: Been through a lot together.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yes, we have.
Claire Andrus: So Frankie and I met in grad school. We met in 2013 out here in Portland, Oregon. We were in school to get our counseling degree, mental health and addiction. Wild. That feels like a lifetime ago.
Friend Supporting in Grief: It was a really long time ago.
Claire Andrus: And I think something that's really important as part of our story that also very much connects grief story involving you is I have this memory of when my mom, so my mom had diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2014. And I was in grad school at the time. And I remember Frankie and I weren't super close friends at that point in the program. It was a small cohort, so we knew each other, but we weren't close, close. And we were in a group therapy class.
The point of that class was we were kind of doing like mock group therapy. And we were sitting in a circle like we were in group therapy. And I remember sharing with the whole cohort. And I don't think I really had up until that point. And, you know, I shared that my mom had been diagnosed with cancer and it was really, really hard for me. I remember I was getting, I was kind of getting choked up and I was getting tearful. And I remember looking across the group and Frankie was sitting across from me. And I know she was starting to tear up as I was talking about my mom's diagnosis. And do you remember that?
Friend Supporting in Grief: I do. I definitely do know what you're talking about it for sure.
Claire Andrus: Do you remember like what you were thinking as I was sharing that?
Friend Supporting in Grief: You know, I just, I felt like it was such a vulnerable thing to be sharing. And yeah, just feeling a lot of empathy in that moment. I think, yeah, it was a very personal, vulnerable thing to share in the group. And you're being, just really candid about it. It just, it hit.
Claire Andrus: Even hearing you say that right now, I almost feel like our teacher, who again was kind of the group facilitator at the same time. I kind of remember her putting you on the spot and asking like, what's coming up for you? And I think you said something similar. Like I think you, you said like her vulnerability. But I just remember feeling really supported and seen by you in that moment, even though again, we weren't best friends at that point. I think it kind opened me up to be able to have a closer, deeper relationship with you.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely felt really connected to you in that moment. Like you said, we weren't like super close at that point, but definitely felt like an opening. And yeah, especially the complex dynamic of that class slash mock group. I was like, wow, you know, Claire's really opening up and yeah, just felt like a very vulnerable, precious moment.
Claire Andrus: I think it represents something so much bigger, because grief is such a lonely experience. And I probably didn't have the words for it at that point, but the like anticipatory grief that I was feeling even from the shock of that diagnosis. And again, some people feel so alone in that and taking the risk to be able to share in the class setting and feeling like someone could hold it. And that's really what we all are looking for in those moments. And so it was really special that you were able to hold that.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah. Yeah.
Claire Andrus: And I'm curious, too, just thinking about it. And I wonder if you have any recollection of this, because I don't. But you would think in a counseling program, that would be a really safe and… Maybe safe's a harder word, but a more comfortable space and more held space to share. I'm curious because I don't really remember there that if there was a lot of support that was being had in that moment from the other group members or even myself or the facilitator, like it's just interesting you would you would assume that that would be a really supportive environment, but I don't really remember people supporting in that moment. I don't.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah, I don't. Like I literally all I remember is sharing something. Seeing kind of your reaction, the teacher asking you about your reaction and that feeling like a really connecting moment. But yeah, I don't have any, I don't have any other recollection of how anyone else stepped up or didn't maybe in that.
Claire Andrus: So so, yeah, that's in my mind part of me and Frankie's origin story. And from there, you know, we got a lot closer. We ended up in the same apartment complex on different floors, at which point really becoming one of my closest friends in the same building as I was going through something really hard was really important to me also. And having you close, like physically for sure, close during that.
Friend Supporting in Grief: As you bring up living together, I'm like, there's so much that happened from point A to point B, just in our relationship in general and a lot of like life stuff and grief at some point.
Claire Andrus: Years after that. So my mom was diagnosed in 2014. Frankie and I and a couple of our friends ended up moving in together in 2016. And at that point, we were graduating and, you know, getting our careers started as therapists. Lots of firsts within that too, all while I was juggling my mom going through chemo, finishing chemo and feeling like things were heading in a positive direction. We actually she had an early remission diagnosis. I don't remember exactly what year that happened. And then cancer came back and from there… Who were you talking to at that point?
Friend Supporting in Grief: Who was I talking to?
Claire Andrus: Yeah. For support throughout that big time period.
Friend Supporting in Grief: You and my therapist. Actually, early on I was seeing a different therapist who was really helpful for other things that I was going through. Then when my mom's cancer was progressing and grief was really becoming the primary thing for me to be working on. I remember thinking like, okay, I don't think she quite specialized in this and not really give me what I'm needing. And I don't know what I need, but it doesn't feel like this is a good fit anymore. It was like early, early January of 2018 when I found my new therapist who's still my current therapist who specializes in grief. I had a therapist kind of throughout the whole, her whole cancer and dying experience, but the person I was seeing shifted at some point. Yeah, and I mean, other friends too, but I think there is just something really unique that stands out to the way that you were able to support me within that time.
Claire Andrus: Another really significant memory that comes to my mind the whole painful four years is I remember beginning, I think it was probably February-ish of 2018, when we found out that she was terminal they were thinking about not doing chemo anymore. And I think at that point they gave her like six to eight months to live or something like that. And you and I took a road trip in Oregon to the Painted Hills, we didn't actually get to see them because it was so fucking foggy. So Oregon. We literally got there one night, they were foggy. We were like, wake up in the morning, go. Still foggy. We didn't see a God damn thing. We have some funny photos of us standing in front of the Painted Hills, but it's just fog behind us. The trip served some other purposes. It's so memorable, not because of the Painted Hills, but just where we physically were.
And I remember we arrived in that tiny ass town that…
Friend Supporting in Grief: Michael? Michelle? Mitchell.
Claire Andrus: Mitchell, which is the closest town to the Painted Hills. And it's just one literal quarter mile street that has a convenience store that closed at like six. I don't think we even made it in time. They had oddly a brewery. And we stayed at the only like tiny little Bed and breakfast, hotel, motel, I don't even know what you call it. And I remember you and I were just hanging out in the room because there's nothing else to do in Mitchell. And I was talking to you about the terminal diagnosis. I was talking, like processing through how hard it is to be on the other side of the country. My mom was in New Hampshire on the East Coast at the time and being in Oregon.
And I have this really strong, vivid memory of just this deep feeling of, I, at that point, had worked with enough clients in my career who had unresolved and complicated grief. And the narrative that I heard over and over again was like, I wish I had been there more. I wish I'd been in there at the end. And I remember saying to multiple people and saying to myself, I didn't want that to be my story. I wanted to be there, but I felt so incredibly like restrained in how I could actually make that happen. I, you know, had only been in my full-time career for a year and a half at that point. And I had financial responsibilities and our rent and car payment and different things like that. And I remember just feeling really at a loss of, I know I need to be at home. I want to be at home. I don't want to regret that. And also like, what do I do with that? Do you remember the conversation?
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah, I 100% remember the conversation and I feel like it was a really one of the first and probably few times where I was like, I need to be like very direct and it's wildly uncomfortable. But I feel like it was an opportunity in front of me and I was so sensitive and I had, obviously never been through the experience that you were going through. And so I didn't want to project any of my stuff onto you of what you should or should not do, but also being my best friend and someone that I absolutely love and care about, you know, I didn't want you to have that experience that you were talking about, that you were hearing with clients and people that you have worked with. So it felt very like taking a risk of she could be pretty pissed at me having this very direct feedback. But yeah, I remember that moment and being like, hopefully this is something that she feels and having someone say it to her could give her permission to feel okay, to know that it's okay, but also like, shit, like not quite sure how this is gonna go over.
Claire Andrus: Do you remember what you said?
Friend Supporting in Grief: I don't remember the exact words. Yeah, do you remember exactly what I said?
Claire Andrus: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you were incredibly encouraging, right? It's funny to hear about your hesitancy of showing up directly because I was coming to you saying like, I know I need to do this thing, but I don't know how to do it. And of course, you were really encouraging, like, yes, of course, but what I think made the difference, and this is the logical part of my brain, rent being the most primary concern I had, you were like, if it means the other three of us have to pay more for the rent to cover you while you're not working to be back home, we'll do that for you. It was so special to be like, not only do you love and care about me and you're emotionally supporting me, but also yeah, this is something that we would do if it means being able to be home more with your mom.
Friend Supporting in Grief: 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you don't think about the financial piece of things. And yeah, I remember I do remember that now that you say it. To me, that was like a no brainer. It was like, well, yeah, obviously. That definitely means more than, you know, a frickin rent payment, but it makes sense for you going through all the checklist of what would this even mean? How many things would this impact? What would the ripple effect be? It's impossible to think about doing that and not think about the financial stuff. So yeah, I'm glad that that was a comment that made that feel less, less stressful of a decision.
Claire Andrus: Yeah, it was just like the permission, right? I mean, you were giving me the permission already right away, but you were also coming with a very logical solution that would lower at least some of the stress that I was having. I'm glad that what ended up happening, my job at the time worked with me to shift how many hours I was working and some other people in my life were able to help financially support me going home. I, you know, for, what was it, like five months, I was going home every other week. I was flying a red-eye Thursday night into the East Coast and then coming home. I did that for like five months.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah, didn't you have to like fly in, take a train, do the whole shebang?
Claire Andrus: Yeah, there was a lot. There's always a transport issue at Newark getting to my flight to fly into New Hampshire. I had to take a shuttle. Yeah, it was always a shit show. I got really comfortable and always wore my running shoes to the airport because I knew I had to run every time. Yeah, I just I think about that that weekend or that that night of the painted hills a lot, because again, I think I really just needed someone who loved me and cared about me to like give me that permission to do something that I really needed to do.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah, it was interesting because I felt like there was, you were, the way that I remember it is that you were just like really grappling with that decision. It wasn't like you had come to that conversation with a conclusion. I mean, there probably was deep down some deeper feelings that you had about it. But it really felt like you were like, yes, I know I want to do this. And then listing all the reasons and barriers to being able to do it. And so that's why I think for me, I was like, I'm going to have to just say this, really directly at that. Like you're fucking doing this. You're doing it and whatever that needs to look like that just needs to happen.
Claire Andrus: No, you're right. There's a thousand reasons why not to do it. And the one or two reasons to do it are really big, like really, really big ones for me. To be able to give that gift to myself and obviously a gift to my mom too, yeah, is definitely something that I would not do differently if I had the chance to do it again, even though it was a really exhausting period of my life, like so fucking exhausting. But it definitely, it was a really important moment for me in that process.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah, absolutely. That feels like a pivotal moment.
Claire Andrus: It was. Oh my gosh, yeah. And so I'm just curious with being, me disclosing the diagnosis in class and then together ups and downs of my mom's health and then the terminal diagnosis and encouraging me to go home popping physically and probably emotionally in and out, is there anything that really sticks out to you from that time of like how you wanted to show up for me? Cause I know, right, so many people don't know how to show up for people in times like grief and trauma and loss and people get kind of paralyzed with it. And I mean, through so many things, I feel like you did such a good job of showing up for me. So I'm just, I am curious about your process.
Friend Supporting in Grief: Yeah, no, that's a good question. I feel like, you know, it's nice. And you said this before, but it's nice to hear that because for my experience, especially because it was kind of an up and down for a while and this had transpired over, you know, a several year time frame. I think things kind of happened slowly, for transformations with you and then you and I and then me and like the ripple effect kind of happened slowly over time. But I think the through line consistently was I know I love you. I know I want to support you and constantly thinking about the best ways to do that given the different phases of what you were going through like the diagnosis is one piece then the treatment and then the different news that you get from the different times that she was in chemo and treatment and then prognosis stuff and then terminal. And then from that point on, until her death, just every piece of that, I was like, how do I support her in these different moments, different news, different milestones in this process?
So, I think what I've learned the most about that is it's better to say something and do something than not. That's like the first and foremost. And each kind of big moment or even like smaller moments, it's figuring out, I want to say something or do something. And then this little voice in your head being like, well, is that enough? Is that the right thing? Is that the wrong thing? Is that gonna trigger more grief? Is that going to upset her more? Is that gonna come out the wrong way? Maybe I just shouldn't say anything at all. So I think it's been a lot of kind of quieting that voice over the years and even now, after your mom's death, you're still experiencing grief from that death and other losses whether that's something that I know that might remind you of your mom or, you know, or death anniversary or Mother's Day, it's still that quieting that voice of this feels important. And I'm thinking about Claire and I'm thinking about, you and your mom and how to say that or be there in a certain way. You know, again, it's just like jumping over that anxiety voice and just being like, just do it. That's more important than getting it like perfect. So I think the process for me personally and being someone that loves you and is supporting you through this, even now, it's just like, don't let that voice prevent you from showing up at all.
So that's kind of the biggest through line for me personally. There are definitely moments that I remember that were helpful in you kind of giving me guidance. Boy. But in a very Claire way, you bought a book. And you're like, this is a great book about how to support people and left it on the counter for us and the roommates. I was like, you're asking for support without being like, this is what I exactly need. And I think those little signs were helpful. You were always really open to sharing. Like, I think that you were also just really open to sharing of like, this was helpful, thanks for doing X, Y, Z. So the positive reinforcement was like, okay, I'm on the right track. And this is something that's meaningful.
Claire Andrus: Yes, something that I think is very much part of what you're saying of yeah, it's not gonna be perfect and don't let the anxiety of saying the right thing because there's no fucking right thing to say. Also something when I think about how you showed up was you didn't take things personally, something I tell people often is if you're reaching out and offering support to somebody who's going through something hard, don't expect a response. I still I have that when people reach out to me during hard times, like I have to respond to everybody. Right. But also, knowing I had close friends and you where I'm like, she's not expecting anything. And if you really wanted to check in, reaching out to somebody else in my life that maybe I was directly with at the time to like make sure I was okay. But not taking those things personally.
And something very specific to you. And I don't know if you remember this, I can't remember if it was like just at the very end. I think it was towards the end of my mom dying, but she hadn't quite died yet, but like really fucking hard time. This is going to sound so shitty coming out, no, shitty for me, not for you. But I think it's good to be having these conversations around the idea of not taking things personally. Specifically what I'm remembering is you had gone sk
